Ben said

george@georgeamlott.com said

Louis Luttrell said
BTW... My only "quibble" with the rifle is that the sheet metal slide in the 22G rear sight has been altered (sight notch cut into a deeper "V") and the stop screw replaced.  The sort of thing you might do when sighting in a gun with your desired combination of ammunition and distance.  EASY "fix" if you only want "factory original"...  
Best,
Lou
  

I bet Ben has the correct parts.  If I can find them, I’ll make it right.
  

George, pm me with your address... I'll happily donate the parts to "restore" you're treasure... cheers.
  

Thanks Ben!

PM sent…

george@georgeamlott.com said

Louis Luttrell said
BTW... My only "quibble" with the rifle is that the sheet metal slide in the 22G rear sight has been altered (sight notch cut into a deeper "V") and the stop screw replaced.  The sort of thing you might do when sighting in a gun with your desired combination of ammunition and distance.  EASY "fix" if you only want "factory original"...  
Best,
Lou
  

I bet Ben has the correct parts.  If I can find them, I’ll make it right.
  

George, pm me with your address... I'll happily donate the parts to "restore" you're treasure... cheers.

I can appreciate you're professionalism, and I think it's important that we here on WACA, can agree to disagree, in a very clean and upheld manner.

I know that you're an upstanding Dealer/seller of fine specimens and have you're long held reputation on the line every day. You could very well be correct in saying that if I held it and looked it over, I would feel different. I respect that!

With today's internet and pictures and such, I feel we have a lot more information that can be good and bad. Look at how pictures can be distorted or misrepresented with the varying light. 

I feel it says a lot about you're character and come on here and post up. I agree with Lou, as to keep it going! Lou's endorsement is as good as anyone's. IMHO! 

Lou,

Thanks for making me laugh with you're post! LOL! You're the best my friend!

Tony

Louis Luttrell said
Hi Ian-
I have a high level of confidence that Dave Morris knows what he's talking about and I know for 100% certain that the HATES fakes!!! Especially M70 fakes!!!
I'm also confident that he stands behind what he sells and would take a return without question.  Of course shipping to/from North Pole Alaska is pretty pricey!!! I'm not kidding when I say that "Santa Claus' House" is up there...  It's a LONG way off!!!
https://www.santaclaushouse.com/visit.asp
Anyway... Dave's a Friend of mine, so make of it what you will...
Lou
  

Absolutely!  I know he has about the finest Model 70s around.  In fact one I’m drilling over now but it’s simply too nice.  I want to be able to fire it now and again and the one he has in my favorite caliber right now is spotless!

I have a high level of confidence that Dave Morris knows what he's talking about and I know for 100% certain that the HATES fakes!!! Especially M70 fakes!!!

I'm also confident that he stands behind what he sells and would take a return without question.  Of course shipping to/from North Pole Alaska is pretty pricey!!! I'm not kidding when I say that "Santa Claus' House" is up there...  It's a LONG way off!!!

https://www.santaclaushouse.com/visit.asp

Anyway... Dave's a Friend of mine, so make of it what you will...

Lou

BUT, OTOH, I se no evidence of buffing or rounded edges leading me to believe that it would be difficult to believe this one is refinished.

For the record, this sold before I saw it and I emailed the seller to let me know if this fell through.  The other purpose of this thread was to see what others think in case this did fall through and I’m next on home plate.

Louis Luttrell said
Hi Dave-
Glad to see you posting on WACA!!!  Tony's a good guy...  I hope to see him this weekend at the OGCA/WACA show.  Want me to beat him up for you???  SORRY... He's a lot tougher than I am!!! 
Maybe you can keep an eye on the site and answer some of the pre-64 M70 questions for me!!!  I have confidence in your knowledge (and awareness that pre-64 M70 collecting is a veritable viper pit)!!!  As for lever guns... I can't tell a M1886 from a M1876... 
Lou
  

Hi Lou,

Haha don't do that! I can clearly see that is the case, as a thoughtful person who has actually held some of these types in his life, unlike many of the other frequent posters I have noted on various sites.

I don't know that I can add much to your vast wealth of knowledge on the Model 70, but am honored and thankful to have shared hundreds (perhaps thousands?) of emails between us in our never ending quests.

It is certainly a mine field out there, and good to keep an eye out for each other. I wish there was a feedback mechanism on GI, and though my presence

on GB is a small fraction of what I do, FWIW my handle there is arcticak for anyone that wishes to hear what actual buyers have to say.

I also wish I was not so isolated up here in no man's land...I greatly look forward to personally meeting many of you serious Winchester scholars and collectors out there in the years to come.

Best, Dave

Glad to see you posting on WACA!!!  Tony's a good guy...  I hope to see him this weekend at the OGCA/WACA show.  Want me to beat him up for you???  SORRY... He's a lot tougher than I am!!! 

Maybe you can keep an eye on the site and answer some of the pre-64 M70 questions for me!!!  I have confidence in your knowledge (and awareness that pre-64 M70 collecting is a veritable viper pit)!!!  As for lever guns... I can't tell a M1886 from a M1876... 

Lou

Anthony #5411 said

frontierguns said

antler1 said
Totally original. My opinion
  

Thank you. You are correct.
I am the seller of this fine rifle, and this comment thread was actually pointed out to me by the buyer. He is a life long and expert collector (as are many of my repeat buyers) who remains completely unconcerned, yet felt that I should be made aware, due to the potential of harming my reputation.
After very careful "in hand" inspection of the rifle in question, I am firmly convinced that it remains in 100% original condition with no tampering whatsoever beyond a potential deep cleaning or two over the past 114 years.
While I truly respect the opinions of some of the other commentors (that's what we are here for) and can certainly understand some skepticism these days, I can also humbly state that I have personally examined literally thousands of the highest condition Winchesters out there, and as some of your more prominant and recognized commentors will hopefully attest, am generally regarded as one of the foremost and most trustworthy dealers of collectible Winchester Model 70s, along with a respectable showing in several other Winchester models.
It can be difficult sometimes to be certain about a firearm from photos alone... I spent most of my primary 40 year career as a pilot and hunting guide here in Alaska, NOT as a photographer, but I always try to do my very best in that regard.
Believe me, NO ONE is more skeptical than I. I am among the few most aware of everything capable by the "who's who" of doctoring up guns. The simple fact is that none of them can exactly replicate vintage Winchester finishes, and I do mean none. It simply will not get past me.
If there is ever a question about any of my listings, I welcome viewers to reach out directly so that we can discuss and focus specifically on those areas.
Dave Morris
Frontier Guns
  

Dave,
I am glad to hear you're response to this thread post. I have been wrong before and am not above admitting when I'm wrong again. I will ask you if you have documented pictures verifying you're statement. The verified pictures of the inside of receiver stamps, tangs, the interior of the wood, etc...........
I have and own a very nice similar condition rifle that I was also not sure about, and through proper examination, was able to verify it, with the proper pictures and stamps.
If so I won't hesitate to offer an apology, but until verification of those facts I can't do this, as I stated, It's my Opinion as a fellow collector, only. As collectors we have heard a lot of different things, and you're description is very good and I have no issues with it. You're experience in handling many collectible pieces was made clear to us above, and I don't doubt you're integrity. I just gave my opinion, as a fellow collector, and would want to hold it if I was purchasing it myself, which I am not! 
Please Understand I have purchased similar items in similar condition, that was found out shortly afterwards, by some very reputable collectors with highly guarded reputations, who kindly stepped up and admitted they we're wrong. That's the only point I'm making here, as I did say and claim, that I felt it could possibly be redone, and if it was it was a very good job.With the bore matching the outside condition in you're description, I feel that surly helps this rifle in an original condition, and the only way to verify, possibly otherwise, would be to cast the bore, and verify it's dimensions.
A few others or someone stated that the barrel marks are weak, which I can see that also, and the dark spots that show age in the wood, that have been clear coated over, are just that. The Blue on the bolt typically looks different than the blue on the barrel, as the two different metal parts can show that, and especially with different lighting. Hence wanting to handle it! IMHO!
I think we can agree that some clear finish was applied to it to protect the finish on it, that has done more good than harm.
I am not questioning you're integrity or you're listing, as you feel it's all original, and I am not sure that it is. Just my unbiased opinion, as a fellow collector.
Tony
  

Thanks Tony,

I absolutely appreciate and understand your perspective, and also, that you were not attacking me personally in any way.

I'm quite certain that you would have a much different perspective if able to handle the rifle in person, probably at a glance which is often the case amongst experienced collectors.

I can't tell you the number of times I have bought listed firearms that I was quite certain had been slightly altered, but were tolerated due to other positive factors such as price or features, only to realize upon opening that it was in fact 100% correct and looked considerably different than the perceived photos. I'm sure others here have been pleasantly surprised as well, although I must admit that the complete opposite is much more common!

Thank you for your insights...I am a complete newbie when it comes to social media and in fact that was my first post ever. I knew I was walking on egg shells, but wanted to be heard, since it concerns my offerings.

Respectfully, Dave

steve004 said

mrcvs said
Tom,
Did you get this one?
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-1886/winchester-1886-45-90-wcf-outstanding-antique-.cfm?gun_id=103832667#gallery-103832667-lg-21
  

How could he not have?
  

Sorry guys, but wern't me! After my latest purchase of the SRC, the well is pretty dry. But thanks for thinking of me. 

frontierguns said

antler1 said
Totally original. My opinion
  

Thank you. You are correct.
I am the seller of this fine rifle, and this comment thread was actually pointed out to me by the buyer. He is a life long and expert collector (as are many of my repeat buyers) who remains completely unconcerned, yet felt that I should be made aware, due to the potential of harming my reputation.
After very careful "in hand" inspection of the rifle in question, I am firmly convinced that it remains in 100% original condition with no tampering whatsoever beyond a potential deep cleaning or two over the past 114 years.
While I truly respect the opinions of some of the other commentors (that's what we are here for) and can certainly understand some skepticism these days, I can also humbly state that I have personally examined literally thousands of the highest condition Winchesters out there, and as some of your more prominant and recognized commentors will hopefully attest, am generally regarded as one of the foremost and most trustworthy dealers of collectible Winchester Model 70s, along with a respectable showing in several other Winchester models.
It can be difficult sometimes to be certain about a firearm from photos alone... I spent most of my primary 40 year career as a pilot and hunting guide here in Alaska, NOT as a photographer, but I always try to do my very best in that regard.
Believe me, NO ONE is more skeptical than I. I am among the few most aware of everything capable by the "who's who" of doctoring up guns. The simple fact is that none of them can exactly replicate vintage Winchester finishes, and I do mean none. It simply will not get past me.
If there is ever a question about any of my listings, I welcome viewers to reach out directly so that we can discuss and focus specifically on those areas.
Dave Morris
Frontier Guns
  

Dave,

I am glad to hear you're response to this thread post. I have been wrong before and am not above admitting when I'm wrong again. I will ask you if you have documented pictures verifying you're statement. The verified pictures of the inside of receiver stamps, tangs, the interior of the wood, etc...........

I have and own a very nice similar condition rifle that I was also not sure about, and through proper examination, was able to verify it, with the proper pictures and stamps.

If so I won't hesitate to offer an apology, but until verification of those facts I can't do this, as I stated, It's my Opinion as a fellow collector, only. As collectors we have heard a lot of different things, and you're description is very good and I have no issues with it. You're experience in handling many collectible pieces was made clear to us above, and I don't doubt you're integrity. I just gave my opinion, as a fellow collector, and would want to hold it if I was purchasing it myself, which I am not! 

Please Understand I have purchased similar items in similar condition, that was found out shortly afterwards, by some very reputable collectors with highly guarded reputations, who kindly stepped up and admitted they we're wrong. That's the only point I'm making here, as I did say and claim, that I felt it could possibly be redone, and if it was it was a very good job.With the bore matching the outside condition in you're description, I feel that surly helps this rifle in an original condition, and the only way to verify, possibly otherwise, would be to cast the bore, and verify it's dimensions.

A few others or someone stated that the barrel marks are weak, which I can see that also, and the dark spots that show age in the wood, that have been clear coated over, are just that. The Blue on the bolt typically looks different than the blue on the barrel, as the two different metal parts can show that, and especially with different lighting. Hence wanting to handle it! IMHO!

I think we can agree that some clear finish was applied to it to protect the finish on it, that has done more good than harm.

I am not questioning you're integrity or you're listing, as you feel it's all original, and I am not sure that it is. Just my unbiased opinion, as a fellow collector.

Tony

antler1 said
Totally original. My opinion
  

Thank you. You are correct.

I am the seller of this fine rifle, and this comment thread was actually pointed out to me by the buyer. He is a life long and expert collector (as are many of my repeat buyers) who remains completely unconcerned, yet felt that I should be made aware, due to the potential of harming my reputation.

After very careful "in hand" inspection of the rifle in question, I am firmly convinced that it remains in 100% original condition with no tampering whatsoever beyond a potential deep cleaning or two over the past 114 years.

While I truly respect the opinions of some of the other commentors (that's what we are here for) and can certainly understand some skepticism these days, I can also humbly state that I have personally examined literally thousands of the highest condition Winchesters out there, and as some of your more prominant and recognized commentors will hopefully attest, am generally regarded as one of the foremost and most trustworthy dealers of collectible Winchester Model 70s, along with a respectable showing in several other Winchester models.

It can be difficult sometimes to be certain about a firearm from photos alone... I spent most of my primary 40 year career as a pilot and hunting guide here in Alaska, NOT as a photographer, but I always try to do my very best in that regard.

Believe me, NO ONE is more skeptical than I. I am among the few most aware of everything capable by the "who's who" of doctoring up guns. The simple fact is that none of them can exactly replicate vintage Winchester finishes, and I do mean none. It simply will not get past me.

If there is ever a question about any of my listings, I welcome viewers to reach out directly so that we can discuss and focus specifically on those areas.

Dave Morris

Frontier Guns

Naturally we can see it was either professionally cleaned up, or had some refinished work done on it. IMHO!

The marks on both sides of the magazine tube, or elongated scratches, are specifically from removing the for-end cap, from cleaning or whatever was done to it, as the rifle shown no dried grease or anything when focusing on the tight places, we look for dried grease, or time accumulated grime.

In looking at the wood fit at both tangs, the forearm is off a little bit and the fit isn't looking right at both sides, even if who ever did some work to the wood, which looks refinished to me, looked at the top tang fir, but the bottom tang metal is a little more proud than it should be. IMO!

It's plain to see some clear finish has been applied to protect the wood and the metal. This is definitely one of the better examples we've seen in a while. Seeing so many that weren't correct over the years, makes me skeptical. If it's correct, and needs to be taken apart and examined, it would be nice to have verified and to hear back, on it from a respectable collector.

A very attractive rifle but for $14,000.00, or anything close to that, doesn't get me excited as a Collector of an original piece, which I don't think this one is! IMHO!!!

Tony

kem@meyersandshaulis.com said
Nice rifle.  About 20 years ago Merz had a 250-3000 Super Grade I wanted.  It was either the rifle or an engagement ring.  I wish I would have bought the rifle.
  

HAHAHAHA!

Tony