mrcvs said
Even just sticking to levers—any consensus relative to the Model 1895 as to which ones by date and/or serial number should be blued or case coloured,
  

Ian,

On page #99, in Winchester M-1895 book, which is in the, "Levers and Links section", which starts on page #98, one can see the forging drawing of the two piece jointed finger lever, unlike any other Winchester Model that we're familiar with naturally.

There is no mention of any Case Colored Hardened Levers, as they all appear to be a bright nitre blued finish, in this book! Even on the serial #814, as a rare C.C.H. receiver is shown on page #71, the lever is blued. Scanning through the book, I haven't seen one with a C.C.H. lever, as I did see a few that show some honest wear of blued finish that has a very normal, and honest patina look to them.

It is my opinion, as a collector and I am far from being an expert on this model or any other, if a M-1895 is encountered and has a case colored lever on it, I would have to say it's an aftermarket finish. IMHO!

Tony

As far as FACTORY engraved M70s, I know of at least (9) authenticated ones, not counting ones that are just monogrammed or were done as outside commissions like my Dad's gun pictured earlier.  Of those nine, seven were done by George Ulrich and two by John Kusmit.  

While it's apparently true that the engravers hated to work on M70s due to their hardened receivers and lack of flat surfaces to embellish, I'm pretty sure you'd have to have some pretty serious polydactly to count them all on two hands... There are probably quite a few of them out there IF you could only authenticate them as having been originally ordered that way.

Lou

Bert is correct insofar as I know.  At least some of the Model 21 records exist, as these were mostly bespoke (made to order) shotguns and the records were preserved.  Not true for anything else.  I tried to track down information when doing the RCS article and pretty much came up with zip... 

The best records for documenting Winchester factory engraving would be the engraver's log books.  At least for work done while "on the clock", as these logs were where they recorded their hours.  Of course any work they did "on the side" (and they all did outside work except Ed Crowley) wouldn't be recorded.  As I understand it CFM has many of the engraver's logs from the 19th Century.  Like the Shipping Department ledgers, they are not available for viewing on-line, but I suppose that if you had a suspected John Ulrich engraved M1873 you could possibly get them to find something in his engraver's log.  I have been told that the individual engravers varied in terms of how much detail they put into their log, some have sketches or smoke pulls, others don't have much...

Pertaining to M70s (1937 - 1963)... Nobody seems to have Alden George Ulrich's logs (1919-1949), but McCracken Library is supposed to be checking for me...  Pauline has many (or all) of the logbooks beginning with John Kusmit and ending with her own.  So she might very well be able to find something on later Custom Shop engraved guns.

Best,

Lou

Zebulon said
Ted,  I'd agree with that assessment. Bolt action rifles are not the ideal canvas for engraving and I confess I don't care for most I've seen. 
However, unless I misunderstand WRA'S record-keeping, that shouldn't be a matter for speculation. Aren't the Custom Shop records from 1937 to 1963 preserved in some fashion? If a factory engraving job were ordered, wouldn't there still be a record of it? 
I understand at least minimal information is still available to Cody on every Model 21 built in New Haven; and that is true only because those were all built by the facility that became the Custom Shop. 
Somebody with knowledge please correct me if this isn't the case. 
  

I do not believe that the CFM has any of the Custom Shop records other than the Model 21.  I do not know the extent of the records that Pauline Muerrle has, but I am led to believe that she has the Custom Shop records well beyond the year 1963.

Bert

Tedk said
One could likely count the number of legitimate factory engraved pre64 M70’s on two hands
  

My bet is that the actual number is at least several dozen.

Bert

However, unless I misunderstand WRA'S record-keeping, that shouldn't be a matter for speculation. Aren't the Custom Shop records from 1937 to 1963 preserved in some fashion? If a factory engraving job were ordered, wouldn't there still be a record of it? 

I understand at least minimal information is still available to Cody on every Model 21 built in New Haven; and that is true only because those were all built by the facility that became the Custom Shop. 

Somebody with knowledge please correct me if this isn't the case. 

tim tomlinson said
If anyone is thinking an answer to this question is going to be neat and all inclusive, they will be disappointed!!  I perused the chapter on receivers in the 1895 book starting on page 94.  Answers appear in or under the various pictures.  Distilled they look like this.  Two rifles in the 20,000 sn range had blued triggers but case hardened lever links.  I saw no hardened and colored triggers.  I did not see any lever being anything other than blued.  Links were case hardened up to the 60,000 to 70,000 sn ranges.  Hammers were case hardened up to the 70,000 to 80,000 sn ranges.  Now, I did not try to cross reference the serial number ranges to dates, but expect anyone sufficiently curious may do so with the "when was your Winchester made" look up at the beginning of our forum.  Now, were any 1895's factory color case hardened for the receiver?  I do not know but have not seen one yet except a couple admittedly done after market just for the fun of it.  Tim
  

tim tomlinson said
Decided to throw in the dates just because.   60,000 was 1907.   70,000 was 1910.  80,000 was 1912.  So now you also have a date range for the links and hammers being case hardened and colored.  Cheers!  Tim
  

I'm in agreement with Tim's great reference work, from the great book that Rob and Brad, put out on the M-1895. I understand the question on the post here, as far as hammers and levers go on the 95, as it does seem to make us take notice of the other models also, as Bert mentioned in comparison, and what Tim was saying about the links and levers. With Tim's astute observance, the links that are color case hardened, stand out as we search to try to see parts that were and or weren't C.C.H. It's obvious that the blued only triggers from the factory, stand out against the C.C.H. links, as the extra care to harden these hardened interior links, we're anticipated as a need, and not just for decoration, as were the hammers. IMO!

It is mentioned, in the book, that in the 2015 records office survey done, only four receivers we're found to be case color hardened, at Winchester, (pg. 71) , making these extremely rare! 

Tony

martin rabeno said
Thanks for the compliments guys.
That Giovanelli rifle is pretty darn sharp though with a great inlay.  I plan on being at the Greeley show next week  I anyone is around stop and say hello. I have a 1876 I just finished.
  

Is it for sale? 😀 Would love to see pics!! 

thanks

In terms of pre-64 Winchester FACTORY M70 engraving, as far as I know there were only three possible engravers.  Alden George Ulrich (chief engraver from 1925 until his stroke in 1949), John Kusmit (George's apprentice and successor), and Nick Kusimt (who apprenticed under John)...  Of those, Ulrich and JK are known engravers of pre-64 M70s.  For example, Ulrich did the RCS (Russell C Smith) "Grail Guns" we wrote about in the Spring 2025 Collector magazine.  He also did the two (R&R) Model 70s in the current RIA Premier auction.  I checked with Pauline (whose letter is used as authentication) and she did write it...

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/4097/3579/factory-ulrich-engraved-special-order-winchester-model-70-rifle

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/4097/3580/factory-ulrich-engraved-special-order-winchester-model-70-rifle

JK also did some M70s, most notably the famous JFK rifle (s/n 500,000) that belongs to (and in) CFM, but some others as well.  This rifle (one of my Dad's) was engraved by JK (according to Pauline).  It's the number 70-5 pattern only with a gold ram on the floor plate instead of the usual 70-5 scroll.  IMHO (and Pauline's according to the letter she wrote for me) it was definitely an outside job (not a factory special order), but it is an example of JK's ordinary low cost engraving...  The JFK gun, which is done in a deeper relief like Ulrich's style, is much closer to being in Ulrich's league than my gun...

Martin's work (on his worst day, if he has any bad days) makes this gun look amateurish.  But for my taste, I do like Ullrich's work...

Just my opinion,

Lou

That Giovanelli rifle is pretty darn sharp though with a great inlay.  I plan on being at the Greeley show next week  I anyone is around stop and say hello. I have a 1876 I just finished.