steve004 said

mrcvs said
Tom,
Did you get this one?
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-1886/winchester-1886-45-90-wcf-outstanding-antique-.cfm?gun_id=103832667#gallery-103832667-lg-21
  

How could he not have?
  

Sorry guys, but wern't me! After my latest purchase of the SRC, the well is pretty dry. But thanks for thinking of me. 

frontierguns said

antler1 said
Totally original. My opinion
  

Thank you. You are correct.
I am the seller of this fine rifle, and this comment thread was actually pointed out to me by the buyer. He is a life long and expert collector (as are many of my repeat buyers) who remains completely unconcerned, yet felt that I should be made aware, due to the potential of harming my reputation.
After very careful "in hand" inspection of the rifle in question, I am firmly convinced that it remains in 100% original condition with no tampering whatsoever beyond a potential deep cleaning or two over the past 114 years.
While I truly respect the opinions of some of the other commentors (that's what we are here for) and can certainly understand some skepticism these days, I can also humbly state that I have personally examined literally thousands of the highest condition Winchesters out there, and as some of your more prominant and recognized commentors will hopefully attest, am generally regarded as one of the foremost and most trustworthy dealers of collectible Winchester Model 70s, along with a respectable showing in several other Winchester models.
It can be difficult sometimes to be certain about a firearm from photos alone... I spent most of my primary 40 year career as a pilot and hunting guide here in Alaska, NOT as a photographer, but I always try to do my very best in that regard.
Believe me, NO ONE is more skeptical than I. I am among the few most aware of everything capable by the "who's who" of doctoring up guns. The simple fact is that none of them can exactly replicate vintage Winchester finishes, and I do mean none. It simply will not get past me.
If there is ever a question about any of my listings, I welcome viewers to reach out directly so that we can discuss and focus specifically on those areas.
Dave Morris
Frontier Guns
  

Dave,

I am glad to hear you're response to this thread post. I have been wrong before and am not above admitting when I'm wrong again. I will ask you if you have documented pictures verifying you're statement. The verified pictures of the inside of receiver stamps, tangs, the interior of the wood, etc...........

I have and own a very nice similar condition rifle that I was also not sure about, and through proper examination, was able to verify it, with the proper pictures and stamps.

If so I won't hesitate to offer an apology, but until verification of those facts I can't do this, as I stated, It's my Opinion as a fellow collector, only. As collectors we have heard a lot of different things, and you're description is very good and I have no issues with it. You're experience in handling many collectible pieces was made clear to us above, and I don't doubt you're integrity. I just gave my opinion, as a fellow collector, and would want to hold it if I was purchasing it myself, which I am not! 

Please Understand I have purchased similar items in similar condition, that was found out shortly afterwards, by some very reputable collectors with highly guarded reputations, who kindly stepped up and admitted they we're wrong. That's the only point I'm making here, as I did say and claim, that I felt it could possibly be redone, and if it was it was a very good job.With the bore matching the outside condition in you're description, I feel that surly helps this rifle in an original condition, and the only way to verify, possibly otherwise, would be to cast the bore, and verify it's dimensions.

A few others or someone stated that the barrel marks are weak, which I can see that also, and the dark spots that show age in the wood, that have been clear coated over, are just that. The Blue on the bolt typically looks different than the blue on the barrel, as the two different metal parts can show that, and especially with different lighting. Hence wanting to handle it! IMHO!

I think we can agree that some clear finish was applied to it to protect the finish on it, that has done more good than harm.

I am not questioning you're integrity or you're listing, as you feel it's all original, and I am not sure that it is. Just my unbiased opinion, as a fellow collector.

Tony

antler1 said
Totally original. My opinion
  

Thank you. You are correct.

I am the seller of this fine rifle, and this comment thread was actually pointed out to me by the buyer. He is a life long and expert collector (as are many of my repeat buyers) who remains completely unconcerned, yet felt that I should be made aware, due to the potential of harming my reputation.

After very careful "in hand" inspection of the rifle in question, I am firmly convinced that it remains in 100% original condition with no tampering whatsoever beyond a potential deep cleaning or two over the past 114 years.

While I truly respect the opinions of some of the other commentors (that's what we are here for) and can certainly understand some skepticism these days, I can also humbly state that I have personally examined literally thousands of the highest condition Winchesters out there, and as some of your more prominant and recognized commentors will hopefully attest, am generally regarded as one of the foremost and most trustworthy dealers of collectible Winchester Model 70s, along with a respectable showing in several other Winchester models.

It can be difficult sometimes to be certain about a firearm from photos alone... I spent most of my primary 40 year career as a pilot and hunting guide here in Alaska, NOT as a photographer, but I always try to do my very best in that regard.

Believe me, NO ONE is more skeptical than I. I am among the few most aware of everything capable by the "who's who" of doctoring up guns. The simple fact is that none of them can exactly replicate vintage Winchester finishes, and I do mean none. It simply will not get past me.

If there is ever a question about any of my listings, I welcome viewers to reach out directly so that we can discuss and focus specifically on those areas.

Dave Morris

Frontier Guns

Naturally we can see it was either professionally cleaned up, or had some refinished work done on it. IMHO!

The marks on both sides of the magazine tube, or elongated scratches, are specifically from removing the for-end cap, from cleaning or whatever was done to it, as the rifle shown no dried grease or anything when focusing on the tight places, we look for dried grease, or time accumulated grime.

In looking at the wood fit at both tangs, the forearm is off a little bit and the fit isn't looking right at both sides, even if who ever did some work to the wood, which looks refinished to me, looked at the top tang fir, but the bottom tang metal is a little more proud than it should be. IMO!

It's plain to see some clear finish has been applied to protect the wood and the metal. This is definitely one of the better examples we've seen in a while. Seeing so many that weren't correct over the years, makes me skeptical. If it's correct, and needs to be taken apart and examined, it would be nice to have verified and to hear back, on it from a respectable collector.

A very attractive rifle but for $14,000.00, or anything close to that, doesn't get me excited as a Collector of an original piece, which I don't think this one is! IMHO!!!

Tony

kem@meyersandshaulis.com said
Nice rifle.  About 20 years ago Merz had a 250-3000 Super Grade I wanted.  It was either the rifle or an engagement ring.  I wish I would have bought the rifle.
  

HAHAHAHA!

Tony

426crown said
Wood doesn't match metal finish.............Bill
  

Agreed, metal looks new. Wood has refreshed finish over dozens of significant handling marks. No wear visible on the metal. Very nice job on the metal, IMHO.

Mike

There is a limit to what most hunters - not gun nuts like us - can shoot accurately. Ive heard a hundred times from friends who shoot the 7mm Rem Magnum that it "feels like a 30/06."  They don't say that about the big thirties. 

When your Dad bought the BDL, I'd just started college and didn't start shooting centerfire rifles until 1966, my second year of law school. At a local range, a classmate urged me to try his new 700 ADL, a 7mm Rem.  I shot it a couple of times and was amazed at how mild the recoil seemed. 

My hunting opportunities have always been limited by time, money, or both and the used Browning High Power 7mm Rem I hunted our Central Texas deer with for a season was a bit much. Later, on West Texas leases when the deer were much heavier amd distances longer, it would have been useful. 

I couldn't afford either in 1966 but I remember handling a 700 BDL and a 1966 Model 70 at Oshman's and wondering what New Haven had been smoking. The 700 BDL was a whole lot of gun for the money. I just didnt quite have it at the time. 

Zebulon said
Actually, it was a 275 Holland that led to the watershed 7mm Remington Magnum. While Warren Page was a major proponent of 7mm magnum cartridges, particularly the 7mm Mashburn Short Magnum,  he was not the progenitor.
The Wyoming outfitter Les Bowman had been given a 275 Holland rifle by Jack O'Connor.  Bowman guided for Elk and his clients used the rifle to great success. Fred Huntington, chief of RCBS, was a friend and client of Bowman and learned from Bowman how impressed he was with the round, although ammunition and .288 bullets were a problem.
Huntington went home to Lewiston, Idaho and used the new 338 Winchester Magnum case to create a 7mm wildcat cartridge, necking it down to .284 to employ commonly available bullets. RCBS made up a set of dies to go with the rifle and a quantity of ammunition and components, and sent the package down to Wyoming. Bowman and his clients tested the rifle and cartridge extensively on game of all sizes and Bowman became very enthusiastic.
Remington design engineers Wayne Leek and Mike Walker were also clients of Bowman and came to hunt and visit. After range testing the rifle and cartridge and reviewing Bowman's game logs, they got Bowman to come to Ilion and help persuade upper management to adopt the cartridge. Remington made a couple of minor changes to ease production and applied to SAAMI for standardization of the 7mm Remington Magnum. Just in time to be included in the list of available calibers for which the new Remington 700 rifle would be first offered, in 1962. It would quickly become a top selling chambering in the new rifle. 
It was the Remington Model 700 and its 7mm Remington Magnum cartridge that brought the Pre64 Model 70 temple to the ground in 1964. I was there and saw it. 
  

Bill,

My father was one of the very early 7MM Magnum fans, and he bought a brand new Model 700 BDL in late 1962... I inherited it in May of 1999.  His pet load for it was 64-grains of IMR 4350 under a 160-grain Speer Grand Slam bullet.  It really gets your attention when the Federal 215 primer ignites all of that powder!

Bert

The Wyoming outfitter Les Bowman had been given a 275 Holland rifle by Jack O'Connor.  Bowman guided for Elk and his clients used the rifle to great success. Fred Huntington, chief of RCBS, was a friend and client of Bowman and learned from Bowman how impressed he was with the round, although ammunition and .288 bullets were a problem.

Huntington went home to Lewiston, Idaho and used the new 338 Winchester Magnum case to create a 7mm wildcat cartridge, necking it down to .284 to employ commonly available bullets. RCBS made up a set of dies to go with the rifle and a quantity of ammunition and components, and sent the package down to Wyoming. Bowman and his clients tested the rifle and cartridge extensively on game of all sizes and Bowman became very enthusiastic.

Remington design engineers Wayne Leek and Mike Walker were also clients of Bowman and came to hunt and visit. After range testing the rifle and cartridge and reviewing Bowman's game logs, they got Bowman to come to Ilion and help persuade upper management to adopt the cartridge. Remington made a couple of minor changes to ease production and applied to SAAMI for standardization of the 7mm Remington Magnum. Just in time to be included in the list of available calibers for which the new Remington 700 rifle would be first offered, in 1962. It would quickly become a top selling chambering in the new rifle. 

It was the Remington Model 700 and its 7mm Remington Magnum cartridge that brought the Pre64 Model 70 temple to the ground in 1964. I was there and saw it. 

426crown said
Wood doesn't match metal finish.............Bill
  

I agree, also weak markings on tangs and some pitting on the receiver despite nice case colouring.  PASS…

426crown said
Refinished? Bill
  

That I wasn’t sure about.  Some barrel markings are weak.