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Hey Everyone,
Attached are some pics of an 1892 44 WCF that I picked up last week. I believe it is a true 1892 DOM but as you can see the oval “p” under the proof mark on the barrel, I believe the barrel was a mail order replacement at some point. There is also a “k” and eith a small”o” or a zero on the receiver near the trigger. Could you guys give me whatever info you have on this?
Thanks,
Angelo
The barrel and rear sight are definitely not 1892 vintage but from much later. The serial number photo looks blurred tome but I make out SN 10218 (or 3) which would make it 1893, however, the number is off center and it is more likely that there is a 6th digit missing at the end. That would make the receiver more like an 1898 vintage. The Winchester proof mark on the barrel but not on the receiver ring which indicates a replacement barrel.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Angelo,
What is the serial number of the rifle please? And can you please post a clear photo of it. The barrel is definitely a mail order replacement. And the receiver mounted peep sight is not original. The receiver has been re-blued and the wood sanded and refinished.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
So a mail-order barrel should have both P and WP proofs? Had thought it was one or the other, because WP was applied after barrel was installed in rcvr.
clarence said
So a mail-order barrel should have both P and WP proofs? Had thought it was one or the other, because WP was applied after barrel was installed in rcvr.
The “W/P” proof would have been applied when the barrel was test fired at the factory and then the “Oval/P” proof was then marked to signify that the barrel was shipped out of the factory and would then be installed on a receiver outside the factory. So think of it this way: the W/P proves the barrel is good and the oval/P absolves Winchester of assembly mistakes.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Online
Hmmm, I believe we have had lengthy discussions on this in the past. My opinion differs from yours. I think the oval P by itself is a mail order barrel which was outside fitted. I believe the combination of the standard WP and oval P proofs mean the barrel was fitted by Winchester and then test fired on the rifle. There are statements from former Winchester employees that say they sometimes used the mail order barrels for fitting to R&R rifles inside the factory.
Again, that is just my opinion based on logic and secondhand employee statements. We may never be able to definitively answer the question based on the remaining records but it neatly explains why some have only a oval P and some have both proofs.
I think we could probably check the ledger for R&R rifles and see how they were proofed. That would be an interesting and informative survey.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Thanks for all the input so far guys. I was confused about the Oval P mark along with the WP proof marks as well. The SN of the gun is: 10213 and it’s centered and not worn out at all. I knew the rear site wasn’t original but I have no clue if it was reblued or refinished. If you guys say so then I will take your word for it as you know much more than I do. The guy I got it from has had it for 30+ years and has only touched it to clean and oil it. I dont even think he ever owned a box of bullets for it. Do you have any idea of approximate value? I just want to make sure I didn’t get screwed.
Thanks,
Angelo
JWA said
I think the oval P by itself is a mail order barrel which was outside fitted. I believe the combination of the standard WP and oval P proofs mean the barrel was fitted by Winchester and then test fired on the rifle…
Well, if there are outside-rebarreled rifles having only the P mark, wouldn’t that be the evidence of what you’re thinking?
Yes, I believe so and yes, there are barrels with only the oval P proof.
Not sure that proves my theory but it certainly does not negate it.
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Angelo Lombardi said
Thanks for all the input so far guys. I was confused about the Oval P mark along with the WP proof marks as well. The SN of the gun is: 10213 and it’s centered and not worn out at all. I knew the rear site wasn’t original but I have no clue if it was reblued or refinished. If you guys say so then I will take your word for it as you know much more than I do. The guy I got it from has had it for 30+ years and has only touched it to clean and oil it. I dont even think he ever owned a box of bullets for it. Do you have any idea of approximate value? I just want to make sure I didn’t get screwed.Thanks,
Angelo
Angelo,
The rifle (most of it at least) was manufactured during 1893. The barrel was manufactured some time after 1925. It was not put on at the factory. There is no R&R entry in the ledgers. Only the barrel is proofed and the oval/P indicates non factory 99.9% of the time. The gun has been re-blued. The rear sight is not original. The peep sight is not original. The holes in the receiver for the peep sight are not original. The wood has been sanded and refinished therefore the finish is non original. Winchester rifles are largely valued by the percentage of original finish and the original configuration of the rifle. Your rifle basically has 0% original finish and the configuration has been altered. “I just want to make sure I didn’t get screwed.” You are most likely asking this question way to late in the game. You always want to do so before you pull out your wallet or check book. The rifle has zero collector value. What that means is serious collectors do not want it. It is a shooter grade gun and might fetch $700 because it looks “nice.”
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Thanks Michael, I paid much less than that so thats part of the reason I added it to the cabinet. I appreciate all the great information from all of you. I have several more I will be posting in the coming days for your opinion and information.
Thanks,
Angelo
As has been said, Oval P along with WP proofs indicate mail ordered barrel installed outside the Winchester factory. I have had a few, great hunting rifles but no collector value.
clarence said
Well, if there are outside-rebarreled rifles having only the P mark, wouldn’t that be the evidence of what you’re thinking?
Clarence,
You mean like this?
I have seen lots of barrels with simply the oval P like above (mostly on .22 rimfires), they are very predominate on the Winchester Model 1903 which seemed to be hard on barrels.
Now, having said that, I have also seen NIB replacement barrels shipped from Winchester (circa 1950’s) with both the oval P and oval WP which supports what Twobit was saying. Again, we will probably never know the actual facts between the single oval P and dual P and WP proof since they are not applied consistently enough to validate either theory. Maybe there was a difference in proof policy between the .22 rimfire and centerfire rifles, or maybe only the replacement centerfire rifle barrels were test fired, or maybe there was a certain period after 1907 that the policy regarding the proofs changed, etc. etc.
There are too many unknowns to make a definitive statement so we are stuck speculating based on what we observe. In my case, for .22 rimfire, that is a percentage of rifle barrels with only the oval P and others with both the P and WP dual proof.
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Most all of the .22’s that I have seen with the typical mail order replacement barrel showed the oval P and that’s it. I have considered for the longest now, that those with the oval P and the oval WP were of a latter era. One .22 that I do recall seeing with both the oval P and oval WP was a clean-up gun…1940 to 1950 era. With this in mind, plus what has already been stated, Winchester deviated from standard procedures from time to time, but this is not going to surprise anyone.
James
jwm94 said
With this in mind, plus what has already been stated, Winchester deviated from standard procedures from time to time, but this is not going to surprise anyone.
Not me. Procedures at Springfield Amory were probably much more standardized & codified than at any commercial arms factory, yet there were plenty of “exceptions to the rule,” especially with regard to markings; all the rules in the world can’t eliminate human carelessness, forgetfulness, laziness, etc.
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