<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom">
	    <channel>
        <title>Winchester Collector - Forum: Winchester Rifles</title>
        <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/</link>
        <description><![CDATA[Official Site of the Winchester Arms Collectors Association]]></description>
        <generator>Simple:Press Version 6.11.14</generator>
        <atom:link href="https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/rss/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml"/>
		                <item>
                    <title>Bill Hanzel on Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179136</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179136</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Lou, thank you for posting that link!</p>
<p>Mr. Rabeno that is some absolutely beautiful artwork! The bear and moose receiver is some of the nicest art I have ever seen, that fact that it’s engraved on a firearm and fully visible to enjoy, is truly wonderful. </p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2026 22:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>Buck1967 on Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179135</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179135</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Here is Grok’s opinion on it…</p>
<p>This is a factory-engraved Winchester Model 70 bolt-action rifle with Ulrich-family engraving (likely George Ulrich, the last of the family to work at Winchester).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p>Your photos show the distinctive bold Germanic/American scroll engraving (dense acanthus-style vines on a punch-dot/stippled background) covering the receiver, with an oval medallion game scene of a bear—classic Ulrich patterns that span from 19th-century lever guns into 20th-century bolt actions. The extensive coverage on the receiver sides, tangs, and other metal parts matches documented factory special-order or exhibition-grade Model 70s.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p>Key Confirmation Points from Photos:</p>
<p>•<span class="Apple-converted-space">  </span>Action details: The close-up reveals the bolt-action mechanism (bolt components visible when open), consistent with the Model 70 introduced in 1936. The spherical/knobbed bolt handle and internal parts align once you account for the angle and engraving obscuring typical outlines.</p>
<p>•<span class="Apple-converted-space">  </span>“FIRE” marking: This appears on a visible internal component (common in Winchester actions for safety/position indicators).</p>
<p>•<span class="Apple-converted-space">  </span>Engraving style: Identical to Ulrich work on both early lever-actions and later Model 70s—flowing scrolls + animal vignettes (bears were popular motifs). George Ulrich (active ~1919–1949) continued the family tradition on pre-’64 Model 70s, often for special orders.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p>Factory-engraved Model 70s are much rarer than their lever-action counterparts. Most were custom shop or special-order pieces with light-to-full scroll and game scenes. Examples include documented George Ulrich rifles with bear/deer motifs, some with gold inlays on premium Super Grade or exhibition variants.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p>Why It Feels Unique</p>
<p>You’re right—the full-coverage style with a prominent bear panel is uncommon even among engraved Model 70s (many have lighter border scrolls or smaller floorplate scenes). This level suggests a high-grade special order, possibly influenced by earlier Ulrich patterns from the 1866/1873 era.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p>To identify precisely:</p>
<p>•<span class="Apple-converted-space">  </span>Share the serial number (on the receiver ring, right side forward of the ejection port).</p>
<p>•<span class="Apple-converted-space">  </span>Barrel markings (caliber, “Winchester” address, proof marks).</p>
<p>•<span class="Apple-converted-space">  </span>Any engraver initials (tiny “G.U.” or similar hidden in scrolls) or factory order notations.</p>
<p>•<span class="Apple-converted-space">  </span>A Cody Firearms Museum factory letter would confirm original engraving details and cost.</p>
<p>This is a standout collector piece—pre-’64 Model 70s with documented Ulrich engraving command strong premiums at auction. More photos (left receiver side, floorplate, bolt, full stock) or the serial would let us match it to known examples. Beautiful rifle!</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2026 22:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>Bo Rich on Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179134</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179134</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Louis,  I agree Martin does excellent work!  Interestingly, Martin mentions that the work may have come out of Japan.  So, it is very possible that a Service man may have ordered the work.  Been to Germany, not Japan.  So, I have no idea what the rate would of been on the dollar to the yen.</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2026 22:09:36 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>Buck1967 on Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179133</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179133</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">
<p><strong>Louis Luttrell said </strong><br />
For Bob...<br />
<a href="http://fega.com/memberwebpages/masterdetail.asp?recidparam=430" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://fega.com/memberwebpages/masterdetail.asp?recidparam=430</a><br />
Martin is in a TOTALLY different league than whomever scratched up that poor M70 back in the day...<br />
Just my take...<br />
Lou<br />
  </p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think it looks amazing! A lot of Winchester engraving you have to squint to see 👀 but not this one! I have never seen Martin’s work so maybe it pales in comparison but I’ve seen and own a lot of Engraved Winchester albeit 94’s and this one is pretty impressive in my humble opinion.</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2026 21:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>Louis Luttrell on Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179132</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179132</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>For Bob...</p>
<p><a href="http://fega.com/memberwebpages/masterdetail.asp?recidparam=430" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://fega.com/memberwebpages/masterdetail.asp?recidparam=430</a></p>
<p>Martin is in a TOTALLY different league than whomever scratched up that poor M70 back in the day...</p>
<p>Just my take...</p>
<p>Lou</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2026 21:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>martin rabeno on Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179131</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179131</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Bo  I never said I was THE engraver. I said I AM an engraver. That is why Posted my opinion on this rifle. It is just my educated opinion as an engraver. Sorry if you misunderstood me</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2026 21:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>Bo Rich on Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179130</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179130</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Martin!  When did you do the work?</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2026 20:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>martin rabeno on Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179127</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179127</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>I beg to differ. The engraving is not Germanic in style either as Black leaf or acorn style. It is more reminiscent of the heavy handed work done in Japan on many guns after the war. I knew Claus Willig and this is not his style either in layout design or quality of cuts.  In case you are wondering why I say this, I am an engraver</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2026 20:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>Zebulon on Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179119</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179119</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">
<p><strong>Bo Rich said </strong><br />
I agree with Zebulon.  The thing to remember is that the dollar was strong against the German  mark.  So, a service man could of got some nice engraving at a good discount.<br />
  </p>
</blockquote>
<p>Concur, Bo. I was born too late.  By the Eighties, West Germany had become an economic powerhouse and the exchange rate flipped. The deutschmark was worth a buck twenty-five for a while I remember going over there in '83 and getting scalped.  </p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2026 16:04:18 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>Bo Rich on Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179111</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179111</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Zebulon.  The thing to remember is that the dollar was strong against the German  mark.  So, a service man could of got some nice engraving at a good discount.</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2026 13:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>Zebulon on Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179101</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179101</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p><strong><em>I downloaded two of your images and asked Gemini Pro to try to identify the engraver. For what it is worth, here is he response I got:  </em></strong></p>
<p>Based on the deep relief scrollwork and the "oak leaf and acorn" (**Eichenlaub**) motif on both the metal and wood, this Winchester Model 70 was almost certainly customized in Germany during the late 1950s. While it is unsigned, the style and timing point to a specific circle of masters.</p>
<p>### Most Likely Identification: The Kurt Jaeger / Willig Circle<br />
In 1958, the most prominent source for this type of work on American rifles was the shop of **Kurt Jaeger** in Mainz, Germany. Jaeger specialized in customizing firearms for U.S. servicemen stationed in Europe and for the American market through his brother **Paul Jaeger** in Jenkintown, Pennsylvania.<br />
* **The Engraver:** The engraving is highly characteristic of the **Willig family**, specifically **Emil Willig** or his son **Claus Willig**. They were the primary engravers for Kurt Jaeger. Their work frequently featured the deep, high-relief oak leaf patterns and fine scrolling seen on the receiver and barrel of this rifle.<br />
* **The Stock Carving:** The relief-carved oak leaves and basketweave checkering (a Germanic alternative to traditional diamond checkering) were typically done by specialized "Schäfter" (stock makers) in the **Suhl** or **Zella-Mehlis** regions who worked under the Jaeger or "Guild" umbrella.<br />
* **Why it's Unsigned:** In the German gunmaking tradition of that era, individual engravers often did not sign their work due to strict trade guild rules. Frequently, the shop owner’s name (e.g., "Kurt Jaeger, Mainz") was the only mark, and sometimes even that was omitted if the rifle was a direct "Guild" commission.<br />
### Key Indicators<br />
* **Motif:** The oak leaf and acorn pattern is the "national" engraving style of Germany/Austria, often referred to as **Jager-style**.<br />
* **Technique:** The "shaded" background of the scrollwork and the relief carving on the wood are hallmarks of the **Ferlach** or **Suhl** schools.<br />
* **Rear Sight:** The folding rear sight and the treatment of the barrel breech are common modifications found on rifles sent to the Jaeger shop for "Deluxe" packages.<br />
&#062; **Note:** If you ever find a tiny signature, it might be hidden on the bottom of the receiver tang or under the floorplate hinge, sometimes appearing as a small **"EW"** (Emil Willig) or **"CW"** (Claus Willig).</p>
<p><strong><em>In my experience, Artificial Intelligence engines -- like human experts -- are frequently wrong but never in doubt. However, I have found the paid version of Gemini, as opposed to the free version, sufficiently useful to consult in arms collecting matters regularly. These engines have been fed and digested huge quantities of scholarly literature - in fact, everything available to scholars on the Web - including a lot I can't access directly. You can't take it to the bank but it is a place to start.<img data-upload="1" data-width="3264" data-height="2448" title="IMG_3051.jpeg" alt="IMG_3051.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/zebulon/2026/05/IMG_3051.jpeg" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="3264" data-height="2448" title="IMG_3061.jpeg" alt="IMG_3061.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/zebulon/2026/05/IMG_3061.jpeg" /></em></strong></p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2026 00:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>steve004 on An old wivestail???</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/an-old-wivestail/page-2/#p179099</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/an-old-wivestail/page-2/#p179099</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">
<p><strong>Maverick said </strong></p>
<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">
<p>Bert H. said </p>
<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">
<p>steve004 said<br />
Were they sighted in at the factory with either smokeless or black powder?  I don't quite see how they would have done this with the .32 Special given they didn't offer black powder cartridges in this chambering.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Steve,<br />
Take a close look at the picture of scanned copy of the 1905 catalog I posted earlier in this topic.  Directyl below the high-lighted box is the ballistics data for the 32 W.S. black powder loading.  While Winchester may not have offered factory (commercially) loaded BP ammo for the 32 W.S., they apparently did load and test it.<br />
Bert<br />
  </p>
</blockquote>
<p>They offered to the public and stated "We load this cartridge with Smokeless powder only, but are prepared to furnish primed shells, full metal patched, metal patched soft pointed, or plain lead bullets, and reloading tools, for loading with black powder. We do not advise hand loading or reloading of this cartridge with Smokeless powder by individuals.", on the original announcement flyer.<br />
They sold the Winchester Model 1894 Reloading Tool in 32 W.S. and as the flyer state you could use 40 grains of black powder to reload with. The flyer is an early flyer as it describes the 165 grain bullet, which was later changed to 170 grains.</p>
<p>On the reloading tool boxes the end labels also recommended using Black Powder Only. Winchester discouraged the public from reloading with Smokeless Powder not wanting to risk the liability from a lawsuit.</p>
<p>Sincerely,<br />
Maverick<br />
  </p>
</blockquote>
<p>I found this interesting as well.  I was struck by their statement that the 32 W.S., loaded with black powder, makes it a, "powerful black powder cartridge."</p>
<p>And of course, their recommendation that individuals not attempt to load with smokeless powder but they're all for individuals loading with smokeless powder.  I always think of black powder as being more volatile than smokeless powder, so this is counter-intuitive to me.  Was the main worry that handloader would put too much smokeless powder in the case and that couldn't happen with black powder.  </p>
<p>And finally, I didn't spot any mention of the need for sight adjust between smokeless powder vs. black powder loads.  There is quite a difference in velocity between the two.</p>
<p>I'm really enjoying all of this information - thanks Bert and Maverick.</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2026 22:56:35 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>steve004 on An old wivestail???</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/an-old-wivestail/page-2/#p179098</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/an-old-wivestail/page-2/#p179098</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">
<p>
<strong>Bert H. said </strong><br />
Here is the April 1905 catalog again, but with just the 32 W.S. load data high-lighted.</p>
<p>  </p>
</blockquote>
<p>This is very interesting.  One aspect I find most interesting is that the .32 Special is the only cartridge listed loaded with black powder!  </p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2026 22:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>win4575 on An old wivestail???</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/an-old-wivestail/page-2/#p179097</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/an-old-wivestail/page-2/#p179097</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>I have the same 1894 reloading tool and mold, new in the box.  Label reads for "Black Powder Only".</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2026 21:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				                <item>
                    <title>Commissioner on Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179096</link>
                    <category>Winchester Rifles</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/can-anyone-identify-the-engraver-of-this-1958-winchester-model-70/#p179096</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Fellows: I have this beautiful high relief engraved model 70, made in 1958. 68 years ago. It is in pristine condition and I paid a lot of money for it. The stock is also beautifully carved. I would like to find out who the engraver was? It was not a factory engraver. Perhaps someone here will recognize the engraving. It was done by a Master the old fashioned way long before any lasers were around. Hammer and Chisel. Murene said it was not done by Winchester. Any help would be<img data-upload="1" data-width="3264" data-height="2448" title="IMG_3055.jpeg" alt="IMG_3055.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/commissioner/2026/05/IMG_3055.jpeg" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="3264" data-height="2448" title="IMG_3048.jpeg" alt="IMG_3048.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/commissioner/2026/05/IMG_3048.jpeg" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="3264" data-height="2448" title="IMG_3050.jpeg" alt="IMG_3050.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/commissioner/2026/05/IMG_3050.jpeg" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="3264" data-height="2448" title="IMG_3049.jpeg" alt="IMG_3049.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/commissioner/2026/05/IMG_3049.jpeg" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="3264" data-height="2448" title="IMG_3051.jpeg" alt="IMG_3051.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/commissioner/2026/05/IMG_3051.jpeg" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="3264" data-height="2448" title="IMG_3061.jpeg" alt="IMG_3061.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/commissioner/2026/05/IMG_3061.jpeg" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="3264" data-height="2448" title="IMG_3062.jpeg" alt="IMG_3062.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/commissioner/2026/05/IMG_3062.jpeg" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="3264" data-height="2448" title="IMG_3060.jpeg" alt="IMG_3060.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/commissioner/2026/05/IMG_3060.jpeg" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="3264" data-height="2448" title="IMG_3059.jpeg" alt="IMG_3059.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/commissioner/2026/05/IMG_3059.jpeg" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="3264" data-height="2448" title="IMG_3058.jpeg" alt="IMG_3058.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/commissioner/2026/05/IMG_3058.jpeg" /></p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2026 21:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
                </item>
				    </channel>
	</rss>
