Anthony said
Great additional information guy's.
 
MAVERICK Said,
Frank Sellers doesn’t mention it in his book.
I'm wondering if there's anything in the new Sharps book? Anyone have this book yet? Also wondering how detailed the cartridges, that Sharps used might be in this book, and possibly add to this or help explain some more than we're wondering about.
https://www.blackpowdercartridge.com/product-reviews-35
 
Tony
  

I have all 5 of the Sharps series of books.  The last one, #5, that you are talking about came out many months ago.  It was one of the 8 books I have now gone through.  None list a 50 cal cartridge longer than the 2 1/2" except the one by W. O. Smith and it is just on a list. This list has 9 columns of data but the 50-3 1/4" is blank in 5 of the columns.  

To muddy the water even further.  There is no data that says Sharps ever made a 45 3 1/4" case either but Bertram made some 45-120 3 1/4" brass.

Frank Barnes talks about the Sharps and Winchester 50-140's and the Donnally conversion book lists the dimensions of each cartridge.  The two are very close but not exactly the same. 

Maverick said

My understanding is that the "SH" stands for "Solid Head". Meaning its a solid head cartridge vs a folded head cartridge. Early UMC cartridges were folded head construction vs later were of solid head construction. Its just how they made the case during the drawing process.
So you're saying in said book it shows a Sharp's rifle with its barrel markings as such? Or a box of Sharp's Rifle Company ammunition as such? Or a Sharp's marked reloading tool(s) or bullet mold marked as such?
Or are you stating merely that said author is merely "listing" said caliber?
Frank Sellers doesn't mention it in his book.
As far as I know of the last Sharps Company catalog was produced in 1879. It doesn't list said cartridge or bullet for said cartridge or powder measure for said grains of powder for said cartridge. The catalog on page 18 only lists measures up to 120 grains. Page 28 doesn't list it under either cartridges or bullets. And the largest grains of bullet is 550 grains and its not listed in .50 calibers.

There are no pictures of the cartridge or a rifle, just a list of cartridges and the note about Keith's article. 

MAVERICK Said,

Frank Sellers doesn’t mention it in his book.

I'm wondering if there's anything in the new Sharps book? Anyone have this book yet? Also wondering how detailed the cartridges, that Sharps used might be in this book, and possibly add to this or help explain some more than we're wondering about.

https://www.blackpowdercartridge.com/product-reviews-35

Tony

Chuck said
Maverick, what does the S and H stand for on the UMC cases?
I looked through a book at the gun shop today. The Sharps Rifle by W.O. Smith, 3rd printing in 1965.  On page 101 it lists the 50-3 1/4" 170 gr. of powder and a 700 gr. bullet.
It also has a note that says "Elmer Keith, Big Fifty Sharps" in an article in the American Rifleman June 1940 pg. 15. In the article Keith states the Big Fifty Sharps Buffalo Rifle was sometimes chambered for the extremely large UMC cartridge.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-big-fifty-sharps-rifle/
  

My understanding is that the "SH" stands for "Solid Head". Meaning its a solid head cartridge vs a folded head cartridge. Early UMC cartridges were folded head construction vs later were of solid head construction. Its just how they made the case during the drawing process.

So you're saying in said book it shows a Sharp's rifle with its barrel markings as such? Or a box of Sharp's Rifle Company ammunition as such? Or a Sharp's marked reloading tool(s) or bullet mold marked as such?

Or are you stating merely that said author is merely "listing" said caliber?

Frank Sellers doesn't mention it in his book.

As far as I know of the last Sharps Company catalog was produced in 1879. It doesn't list said cartridge or bullet for said cartridge or powder measure for said grains of powder for said cartridge. The catalog on page 18 only lists measures up to 120 grains. Page 28 doesn't list it under either cartridges or bullets. And the largest grains of bullet is 550 grains and its not listed in .50 calibers.

The Elmer Keith article discusses in my opinion some heavily modified 50 Caliber rifles. From what is stated in the 1940 article, its hard in my mind to deduce that the 50 caliber rifles mentions are being stated as factory originally made or chambered for the 50 Sharps 3 1/4" cartridge. The question being would a 50 3-1/4 cartridge chamber in a 50 2-1/2 bored rifle? Or are have these before mentioned rifles been re-bored as it were? Keith mentions that the barrels have markings of 50 95 and 50 170 700 markings on them and that the 50 170 700 by serial number is the older produced rifle. So what does that mean exactly? Rebored? Re-barreled? Is it a factory barrel? Or aftermarket? Also a 600-700 grains bullet is a long large bullet and double the 300 grains bullet of the Winchester cartridge.

The article is interesting to say the least. To add to even more to the confusion. Sharps made a .52 Caliber Linen Cartridge. So could that be what those said rifles was actually chambered for? Who knows?

I've only seen auctioned Sharps with a "Caliber 50" barrel marking.

There is a lot of information all over the place about the 50-140 Winchester Express cartridge, especially on the internet. For instance, sites and sources often state it was introduced in 1884. Others in 1886. The year 1886 certainly makes most sense to me. Winchester was producing the Model 85 / Single Shot by 1886 and not in 1884. So experimenting with it would have been possible, along with the Model 1886 Rifle and other .50 caliber cartridges. But as Bert notes, actual chambered S.S. rifles were in 1894. Cartridges boards with board dummies are known on the 1890 board. Not known on the 1888 board, and not on the 1897 board. So when was the cartridge actually introduced by Winchester? I believe the 1886 year to be correct. Somewhat, as to say experimented with, "introduced" really may be too strong of a word. Was it actually ever properly Introduced? I suppose you could say at the least by 1890 with the 1890 Board?

If you look at Shuey's Headstamp Book Volume II, page 180 he has some interesting info. Shuey notes the Haven manuscript mentions "this cartridge was in use in 1886, but must have been of very limited sales as it does no appear in any of the Winchester catalogs..." Shuey further notes "(Gardner) Ledger Note of 1/26/92 TO MAKE "...FROM 50-140 EXPRESS SHELLS..." 500 - 50/110 EXPRESS FULL LENGTH SHELLS (LENGTH 2.765 TO 2.775)", THIS ORDER WAS FOR SHOT CARTRIDGES." So in the year 1892 the factory made up 500 shot cartridges from 50-140 Express brass to make / fill an order of 50-110 Express Shot cartridges. So they must have kept on hand at least 500 brass shells of 50-140 Express in the year 1892. 

If you look at the other rare 50-105 Express cartridge that is also on the 1890 Cartridge Board. It was also experimental and (18) Model 1886 rifles produced chambered in the year 1888 for it as well. The 50-110 cartridge is considered to have been introduced in 1887. The 50-100-450 is introduced in 1895. So I don't see it much of a stretch to say the company was experimenting with the cartridge and producing it in some quantity or with some limited purpose or had a limited stock of the 50-140 Express from the years at least from 1886 to 1897.

Its most certainly a very rare cartridge today. You can buy a very nice rifle for what a single loaded cartridge goes for.

A factory chambered rifle would certainly be a rare bird. 

Sincerely,

Maverick  

Chuck said
Maverick, what does the S and H stand for on the UMC cases?
I looked through a book at the gun shop today. The Sharps Rifle by W.O. Smith, 3rd printing in 1965.  On page 101 it lists the 50-3 1/4" 170 gr. of powder and a 700 gr. bullet.
It also has a note that says "Elmer Keith, Big Fifty Sharps" in an article in the American Rifleman June 1940 pg. 15. In the article Keith states the Big Fifty Sharps Buffalo Rifle was sometimes chambered for the extremely large UMC cartridge.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-big-fifty-sharps-rifle/
  

I am of the belief that the "S" "H" stamped on the cartridge head is an abbreviation for "Sharps".

Bert

I looked through a book at the gun shop today. The Sharps Rifle by W.O. Smith, 3rd printing in 1965.  On page 101 it lists the 50-3 1/4" 170 gr. of powder and a 700 gr. bullet.

It also has a note that says "Elmer Keith, Big Fifty Sharps" in an article in the American Rifleman June 1940 pg. 15. In the article Keith states the Big Fifty Sharps Buffalo Rifle was sometimes chambered for the extremely large UMC cartridge.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-big-fifty-sharps-rifle/

TXGunNut said
Something that makes the Sharps and Winchester names for this cartridge interesting is the word "Express". Winchester was quite fond of the term generally applied to cartridges of generous powder capacity and light-for-caliber bullets. The 3 1/4"case certainly had the case capacity but the bullets listed in the Barnes reference don't seem light to me. Maybe the person who ordered the Single Shots in Bert's ledger excerpts wanted to use heavy as well as light bullets. Is it possible the bullet diameters referenced by Barnes were paper patched for the Sharps? 
 
Mike
  

As far as the Winchester cartridges go. They used Winchester's Express bullets in them, and that is whey they're referred to them as such. There is not a Paper Patched version on the 1890 Cartridge board and I'm not aware of any 50-140 Win. Express cartridges with a factory paper patched bullet. Only board dummies and a few loaded examples are known found today without the paper patched bullets. 

The UMC produced cartridges are however paper patched. The profile of the bullet is also different with a rounded nose instead of the flat point. So Barnes maybe got his information from comparing a UMC cartridge and a WRACo cartridge.

In my minds eye the fact that at least two Single Shot 85s were chambered in the cartridge, then its proof that they made up and sold boxed cartridges to the client. I would imagine at the very least the buyer received if not one to two or three (1,000 round) cases of boxed ammunition with his rifles. 

They also likely made up a few hundred or possibly over a 1,000 examples of the 1890 Cartridge Board with each having one dummy. The 1890 Cartridge boards were not numbered. The next board the 1897 Cartridge Board was numbered with serial numbers known over #1,900. So its hard to say how many 1890 dated boards were produced. 

Sincerely,

Maverick

I view both of those rifles as highly "special" order based on the information in the ledger record.  Unfortunately, the whereabouts of both rifles is still unknown today.  I would certainly be willing to part with some of my prized possessions to acquire one or both of them!

Bert

The Winchester 1890 cartridge board has 4 of the rarest cartridges made by Winchester.

Mike

First of all thanks for posting the information on the up dated of at least 875, .50 caliber S.S. rifles as I was shy of older printed info, of about 500.

I do find it interesting that these two M-1885 S.S. rifles we're mfg. in 1894.

BERT Said,

Interesting, but I have yet to ever find it listed in any of the period Winchester catalogs.

Both of the 50-3 ¾” rifles were apparently ordered by the same buyer (the Order # is the same for both), and interestingly each with its own specified barrel size and rifling twist rate. 

Both rifles (s/n 63042 and 66662) were received in the warehouse on March 13th, 1894 and shipped to Order # 8884 on March 15th, 1894… 4-years later than the Winchester cartridge board.

S/N 63042

S/N 66362

Bert

Brady,

Very interesting and important also.

Tell that to the 1890 Winchester Cartridge Board!
On that board it is listed as the “50-140 Express, Winchester Single Shot”. That name / nomenclature is very specific towards calling it a Winchester cartridge. Right above it are two 40 Express Winchester Single Shot cartridges, one being the paper patched version the other being the grooved bullet version. When you look at the other cartridges on the board, there are plenty others that are cartridges marked with the word “SHARP’S” on the board above and below the 50-140 Winchester Express and elsewhere on the board.
The cartridge was certainly not a cataloged cartridge. Just like the 70-150 Express cartridge. It also is on the board. They’re certainly considered experimental and I don’t think any know boxes of cartridges are known for either of them.

Sincerely,
Maverick

I'm enjoying the additional comments and information, as we all can benefit from thread post!

There still hasn't been any printed information known or listed in Brochures or Catalogs, of this .50-140 cartridge, by Sharps or Winchester, but some very interesting stuff has been brought back to light.

Knowing and showing, that the .70-150 was also listed on the cartridge board, and an "Experimental" cartridge, can we assume that Winchester was "Experimenting", with the .50-140 cartridge also? No Cartridge Boxes are known in the .50-140, as was stated previously, but we do have proof of a few cartridges.

Winchester who was pretty good at promoting they're products back in the day, and nothing in print has been found in a Winchester brochures, or catalogs, yet we see examples on an 1890 cartridge board, and Bert, clearly shows records, from the factory ledgers, in 1894, of two 1885 S.S. Rifles with this interesting cartridge.

Tony

steve004 said
Tony -
As you may recall, there has been no finality in positively identifying what .50 caliber cartridge the Camp .50 took.  No one has ever seen a box of cartridges.  The cartridges in the group below all fit the chamber of my Camp 50. They are, 50-70 shot, 50-95 shot, 50-110 shot and regular 50-110 cartridge.  I'm not saying they all feed through the action.  But given they all fit the chamber, I wonder if the .50-140 cartridge would fit the chamber?!  I'm sure I'd have to take the barrel off to try.

View post on imgur.com

The shot of the rifle with a cartridge sitting on top of the magazine follower - the cartridge is a .50-110 shot cartridge.  Sorry about my poor job of adding photos.

View post on imgur.com

Steve,

In the Frank Barnes, "Cartridges of the World", 13 th edition, which is one of the relatively older editions, as it mostly hasn't changed besides more modern graphics. IMO! The facts inside are the same.

Under the .50-140 (3 1/4 inch, Sharps, .50-140 Winchester Express cartridge listing on page #158, at the end of the General Comments, it states, "Sharps rifles used .509-inch diameter bullets, while Winchester used .512 inch diameter." Interesting!

Steve,

It also states, "The Basic duplicates this case"! Again Interesting, as I understand this to reference the "Basic .50 Caliber". 

Tony

Maverick said

Bert H. said
It is not a "Winchester" cartridge... they never claimed it, or even catalogued it.
  

Tell that to the 1890 Winchester Cartridge Board!
On that board it is listed as the "50-140 Express, Winchester Single Shot". That name / nomenclature is very specific towards calling it a Winchester cartridge. Right above it are two 40 Express Winchester Single Shot cartridges, one being the paper patched version the other being the grooved bullet version. When you look at the other cartridges on the board, there are plenty others that are cartridges marked with the word "SHARP'S" on the board above and below the 50-140 Winchester Express and elsewhere on the board.
The cartridge was certainly not a cataloged cartridge. Just like the 70-150 Express cartridge. It also is on the board. They're certainly considered experimental and I don't think any know boxes of cartridges are known for either of them.

Sincerely,
Maverick
  

Interesting, but I have yet to ever find it listed in any of the period Winchester catalogs.

Both of the 50-3 ¾" rifles were apparently ordered by the same buyer (the Order # is the same for both), and interestingly each with its own specified barrel size and rifling twist rate. 

Both rifles (s/n 63042 and 66662) were received in the warehouse on March 13th, 1894 and shipped to Order # 8884 on March 15th, 1894... 4-years later than the Winchester cartridge board.

S/N 63042

S/N 66362

Bert

Bert H. said

It is not a "Winchester" cartridge... they never claimed it, or even catalogued it.
  

Tell that to the 1890 Winchester Cartridge Board!

On that board it is listed as the "50-140 Express, Winchester Single Shot". That name / nomenclature is very specific towards calling it a Winchester cartridge. Right above it are two 40 Express Winchester Single Shot cartridges, one being the paper patched version the other being the grooved bullet version. When you look at the other cartridges on the board, there are plenty others that are cartridges marked with the word "SHARP'S" on the board above and below the 50-140 Winchester Express and elsewhere on the board.

The cartridge was certainly not a cataloged cartridge. Just like the 70-150 Express cartridge. It also is on the board. They're certainly considered experimental and I don't think any know boxes of cartridges are known for either of them.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Anthony said

Bert H. said

Chuck said

Bert H. said
In answer to your question, Winchester manufactured just (2) high-wall rifles chambered for the Sharps 50 3-1/4 cartridge.
Bert
  

Sharps went out of business in 1881.  There are no records stating that Sharps ever manufactured this cartridge.  In my opinion, unless someone can produce a Sharps document saying otherwise, this is a Winchester cartridge. 
  

It is not a "Winchester" cartridge... they never claimed it, or even catalogued it.
  

I am no authority on this and won't pretend to know any more about this than both you gentlemen, as I feel you're both correct in you're statements. Most of this information that I have in my notes from over the years are acquired from Frank Barnes, "Cartridges of the World", and a few other sources from the internet, over the last few years. It's something that I enjoy updating.
Sharps never cataloged the 50-140 cartridge in any of their firearms. They did however experiment with the 50-140 cartridge for their Sharps/Borchardt rifle,(1878). Winchester never manufactured the 50-140 cartridge on a commercial basis either, but did load the 50-140 cartridge with a 473 grain bullet.
UMC, was known to have Brass cartridges for the 50-140 cartridge, and manufactured them as an available item for re loaders on the commercial market, as hand loaders of the day would load a paper patched, 700 grain bullet in the cartridge case for the mighty Buffalo herd that was dwindling rapidly. 
With the Sharps Rifle company going defunct in 1881, as Chuck stated, and this cartridge never advertised by Sharps or documented in print, and the Buffalo herd almost gone by 1880, and Winchester doing they're own 50-140 cartridge experimenting, never documented the 50-140 cartridge in they're catalogues either, as Bert stated. We know that only a couple Winchester rifles were known to be made in the model 1886, (3, 50-100-450, according to John Madl research). 
So the timeline between the 1880/1881 to 1886/1888, (approximate years of the mystery behind the 50-140 cartridge), isn't very well documented.
To my point, the 50-140 cartridge, (originally believed to be loaded from the 50-90 cases),  was never officially documented, as their are many similarities, (this is where I get in trouble), with the various closely related cartridges as the, 50-90, 50-100, 50-105, 50-110, 50 EX. all have dimensional similarities besides the length being the difference. Because of these cartridge length dimensions, each stands alone. Madl states over 5000, m-1886's we're manufactured in these various .50 caliber Rifles.
Bert, states in his research survey and printed in the WACA Collector Winter 2021, that approximately under 500 we're mfg. in the few various .50 caliber cartridges, including the 2 in the Sharps .50 3-1/4. 
The 50-140, (3 1/2-inch long), will always be refereed to as the 50-140 Sharps,(50-140 Express), until proven otherwise.
In some of my information statements here, there is some apple and oranges comparisons, from my notes as I tried to explain this the way I view this, as I do find this interesting. Sorry for the confusion. The quest goes on!
Tony
  

Steve, where can I find the info about Sharps experimenting with the 50-140?

Winchester did make 50-140 EX ammo, but probably not much.

Here is a pic of the 3 ea 50 cal cartridges for the 86 next to a WRACO 50-140 EX board dummy and a loaded round.  Next pic is the head stamps for the 2 50-140 EX.