That's a nice way to inform the masses on Zeb's question, on the rate of twist, for the .250-3000 caliber, as the factory blue prints you put up, help us to compare the barrel twists with several other calibers.

Very interesting.

Tony 

Chuck said
I have no experience with this caliber.  Have any of you tried a flat base bullet?  These have more sidewall to grab the rifling.  These helped me stabilize a couple of bullets. 
  

Chuck,  The prior experience I've had with the 250-3000 Savage cartridge is fairly long but narrow. I loaded, shot, and hunted with only one rifle so chambered but did so quite a lot.  My little full-stocked carbine had a 1-10 twist barrel, which would stabilize any .257 bullet from 60 grains all the way up to 120 grains, although the case ran short of powder capacity for anything over 100 grains, which I mostly used. I will say I did not load boattail bullets, as a rule. 

That rifle is the reason I question whether "overstabilization" is a phenomenon of any concern at the rotational velocities developed by practical sporting rifles. The most accurate bullet -- the one with which I shot the smallest subminute 100 yard groups from benchrest was a 75 grain varmint bullet. Yet 100 grain Silvertip factory ammunition would routinely stay between .85 and 1.15" when tested at 100 yards, as long as i did my part and didn't overheat the skinny little barrel. From a 6.5 pound carbine!  Maybe a difference could have been seen at 200+ yards. 

The 250 Savage, as popular as it was before the 243 WCF cancelled its ticket (and the 257 Roberts' ticket as well) was handicapped by the short, (e.g. 20") slow-twist barrels Savage put on several variations of the Model 99. Winchester adopted the twist along with the cartridge but put it in the Model 70, most of which had the 24" barrel necessary to get muzzle velocity to 3000 fs. I expect the carbines weren't shot at very long ranges, enough to draw complaints. 

Now that I have access to a 200 yard range, I suppose I could see what it took to destabilize bullets at that distance but ... this rifle isn't tapped for scopes. I've got a Marble tang on order, which should reach me the same day the rifle shows up. 

It must be my contrarian nature to deal with Forties and Fifties rifles, ammunition, and  issues that have long since been resolved by their modern counterparts -- Exhibit A could be the .25 Creedmore. However, in the course of trading a lot of rifles after hunting with them, I've killed Whitetailed deer with a 6mm Remington, 243 Winchester, 30 Winchester, 308, 30-06, 270, 280, 7mm magnum, and nothing killed them quicker than the 250 Savage. It had by far the mildest recoil and report and was easy to shoot accurately. That is why I'm drawn back to it. 

Louis Luttrell said

Zebulon said
Good morning, Bo. Thanks for the information.  Because the caliber in pre-64 Model 70s is hard to get, I've had no experience with it and assumed the 250 version had  a 1-10 twist, not 1-14. 

Hi Zeb-
Just for your reference, this 1938 blueprint shows the bore specs for Winchester's Models 54 and 70 in 250-3000 Savage.  One in 14" twist. They didn't change it before dropping the chambering in 1949...

Best,
Lou
  

How did I know you would be along with the Horse's Mouth chart?  You're a much better resource than Gemini because Gemini doesn't have all your stuff. Thanks, once again. 

Zebulon said
Good morning, Bo. Thanks for the information.  Because the caliber in pre-64 Model 70s is hard to get, I've had no experience with it and assumed the 250 version had  a 1-10 twist, not 1-14. 

Hi Zeb-

Just for your reference, this 1938 blueprint shows the bore specs for Winchester's Models 54 and 70 in 250-3000 Savage.  One in 14" twist. They didn't change it before dropping the chambering in 1949...

Best,

Lou

Later, when I got the chance to hunt in the South Texas brush country and then got on a lease in the West Texas rolling plains, the deer were giants by comparison and I used a 30/06 with premium Winchester 180 grain Ballistic Silvertip. 

Now I just want some good, mild venison,  afternoon hunts in mild weather that don't tax my arthritis, and a light-kicking, unscoped rifle I can carry all by myself. 

My 25/06 days are past me. 

While the Savage action is stout, I don't think they heat treated them for +50k psi until the company started chambering for 243 and 308, late in life. My EG was made in '47 and has condition.

While I've seen people push Ruger 77s to 3000 fs with 100 grain bullets,  I never felt the need. (Actually, mine was reamed with a short chamber and I got hard bolt lift with far less Olin 760 than I saw published in reputable manuals.)

If I can get a Speer cup-and-core 87 grain spitzer up to 3000 with traditional pressures, that would serve all my needs for the gun.

My varminting needs are served by a 1948 Model 70 that was customized with a heavy 26" SAKO 22-250 barrel and fitted with a post-'53 Supergrade stock, by H. H. Nagel of San Antonio. Like a Heinz 57 hound, it has no pedigree but it hunts. 

Bert, nothing larger or tougher than our Whitetail deer - and very likely a doe or, if I had my druthers, a fat, young spike.buck. In short, something for the skillet. 

The rifle in question will be tang sighted,  so 200 yards would be a long shot for me at an unwounded animal. 

Our club is fortunate to have a couple of 200 yard rifle positions, so I should be able to see if I can still hit a target at that range and whether it goes through the paper sideways or point forward. 

Tim,  you're right to say Graf & Son are the good guys. They had a supply of Hornady brass, the Redding dies I like, and a box of good old, low tech Speer 87 grain spitzers to start off with. 

Bert, let me amend my list to include any unlucky Rio Grande gobbler (or hen in Fall, in some counties) that might wander by. For which I need to make up a couple of turkey loads to keep in a pocket. I've still got enough 4759 and may have a few 85 grain lead or JFP lying around. 

Years ago, in the Eighties, Texas had its first Spring Rio season and I had to borrow a rifle from a serious hunter/reloader friend. A 243 for which he said he'd put up some "turkey loads". I was a guest on a lease in the Cross Timbers that had flocks of Rios in the hundreds of birds. Beginner's luck, or a retarded bird, I called up a 22 pound gobbler and nailed him.through the big middle at about 30 yards. My friend's turkey loads were frangible 80 grain over a big dose of 4350 and it not only killed the tom but field dressed him. It left the breast meat untouched but I didn't photograph what was left for the books. Ive never borrowed ammunition since. 

First question... what specifically do you intend to shoot with your 250-3000 (e.g. whitetail deer or something else)?

Second question... at what range (distance) do you intend to shoot it?

I have found that the Sierra 70-grain .257 JSP bullet shoots wonderfully in my 1:14 twist 25-20 S.S.  With careful placed head (ear) or neck shots, it will cleanly kill any deer sized critter.  My Single Shot (low-wall) rifle with its 28-inch barrel likes 12.0 grains of IMR 4198 underneath the Sierra 70 grain JSP bullet.

25 CAL 70 GR Tipped VarmintKing (TVK) - Sierra Bullets

That stated, if I were to specifically hunt deer with a 250-3000 I would probably choose the 75 grain Hornady V-Max bullet.

This link provides some interesting background information concerning the 250-3000 cartridge - .250-3000/.250 Savage (ballisticstudies.com)

Bert

According to JMB'S Web engine for running Miller calculations,  NONE of those can reach stability at an assumed 3,000 foot seconds muzzle velocity, on a Standard Day.

After running repeated calculations with slight changes in projectile length, it appears there are surprisingly few game bullets in current manufacture -- all in the 85-87 grain weight range -- that will reach the Miller standard for gyroscopic stability. 

Surprisingly, while the Speer 87 grain spitzer qualifies,  the Hornady 87 grain Spire Point is marginal. Nosler's 85 grain Ballistic Tip - which they classify as a varmint bullet -- qualifies, although I haven't got one in hand and may have overstated the length of the plastic tip.

TXGunNut said
Nice! I like the new retaining nuts. Good to see a big company like Lee doing custom work. I've been part of some bullet mould group buys where if we got enough people that wanted a custom mould Lee would do a limited run for us. A fellow hog hunter from Cuero, Texas had a knack for designing wide meplat heavy hunting bullets that he tested on the hogs frequenting his ranch. I did a bit of Beta testing on the hogs a few hours south of his place. I wonder how Ranch Dog is doing these days.
 
Mike
  

With the O rings the rings stay put and no tools required.  Redding claims they can make dies too but the cost is quite a bit more. 

Chuck said
Here is a pic of the 45 EX dies.  
When they returned the brass and bullets they also included 1 sized dummy round with a seated bullet.  Loads with no problems.
  

What was the final tab for those dies?  The look really nice