Nevada Paul said

Chuck said
Steve I definitely agree.  I collect old manuals and have never started a load development without a chronograph.  I use the data in the old manuals but always start low and work up.  Remember, speed alone does not give you what the actual chamber pressure is.  Some powders will go over the safe pressure before it hits the speed. 
  

I, too, collect old manuals and enjoy perusing and comparing loads across time. 
And yes, it is obvious that newer manuals often show 'lighter loads' than older manuals, all other things being equal.
But I've attributed this difference to liability and legal concerns more so than the newer powders being 'hotter'.
 
NP 
  

I agree... the powders of today (e.g. IMR 4198, A2400, IMR 4227, IMR 3031 are in reality no "hotter' than they were 50 years ago.  It is the legal eagles and the implied liability that has driven the revised (reduced) loading for them in the modern reloading manuals.

Bert

Chuck said
Steve I definitely agree.  I collect old manuals and have never started a load development without a chronograph.  I use the data in the old manuals but always start low and work up.  Remember, speed alone does not give you what the actual chamber pressure is.  Some powders will go over the safe pressure before it hits the speed. 
  

I, too, collect old manuals and enjoy perusing and comparing loads across time. 

And yes, it is obvious that newer manuals often show 'lighter loads' than older manuals, all other things being equal.

But I've attributed this difference to liability and legal concerns more so than the newer powders being 'hotter'.

NP 

Chuck said

Nevada Paul said

Chuck said
In P. O. Ackley's book on page 329 he shows a load for a 25-20 WCF with an 86 gr. bullet and 5.5 grs. of Unique for 1,795 fps.
8.5 grs. of 4227 will get 1,400 fps.  10.5 grs. of 4227 he says will get you 1,725 fps.  He also shows 2 loads with a 60 gr. bullet but these he uses 2400, 11.5 gr for 2,200 fps. and 4227, 12.5 grs. for 2,150 fps. 
Start low and work up....
  

Chuck, I have Ackley's volumes from way back in the day. Colorful and inventive guy, and interesting reading. But Ackley, much like Elmer Keith, seemed to have a bent to maximize velocity from every cartridge they encountered.   While that may be a worthwhile endeavor, it gave me great reluctance to jump into any of their loading data.
Paul
  

Not just Ackley and Keith.  The other thing is the older powders weren't as hot as the same powder today.  My chrono has found this out many times.
  

This is a very important point.  It makes the old loading book data's applicability questionable. Start low, work up slowly and use a chrono if possible.  I'll bet Chuck will agree with me on this.

Zebulon said
Understood. I have the 1908 Hammer Pocket but without nearly as much condition as your Military.  I haven't shot it beyond a magazine of vintage Western 130 ball. The magazine is, sadly, aftermarket and the retaining slot has been buggered. 
My 38 shooter is a bright stainless ELCEN serial prefix, an overrun from the Colt Custom Shop for a distributor order intended for sales South of the Mexican Border. Gaudy?  It will blind you on a Sunny day but the barrel is cut to headspace on the case mouth and it's the most accurate .38 Super I've ever had. Back when I still had to requalify to renew my LTC, it was always the gun I used.  
  

Bill,

If you have not seen this, I highly recommend it - Ken Hackathorn Discusses Wilson Combat Flat Wire Recoil Springs - YouTube

Bert

Chuck said

Bert H. said

Zebulon said
Are you shooting that .38 Auto load in a Super?
  

No I am not.  I am shooting it in my 1917 production Colt Model 1902 Military.  I do have a heavier (aftermarket) recoil spring in it though.  I installed heavier (Wilson Combat) flat wire recoil springs in nearly all of my semi-auto pistols. 
The load I am using for it is .1 grain under the recommended starting load (per Lyman's 41st edition), and .5 grains under the Max suggested load.
For my Colt 1911A1, I have a 19-lb spring in it versus the standard 16-lb.  It enables me to shoot P+ loads without harming the gun.
Bert
  

The 1902 Military is my favorite of the early Browning/Colt semi autos.  Wish I had one that actually went to the Military.
  

Mine did... my dad brought it home from Korea in early 1953.

My 38 shooter is a bright stainless ELCEN serial prefix, an overrun from the Colt Custom Shop for a distributor order intended for sales South of the Mexican Border. Gaudy?  It will blind you on a Sunny day but the barrel is cut to headspace on the case mouth and it's the most accurate .38 Super I've ever had. Back when I still had to requalify to renew my LTC, it was always the gun I used.  

Nevada Paul said

Chuck said
In P. O. Ackley's book on page 329 he shows a load for a 25-20 WCF with an 86 gr. bullet and 5.5 grs. of Unique for 1,795 fps.
8.5 grs. of 4227 will get 1,400 fps.  10.5 grs. of 4227 he says will get you 1,725 fps.  He also shows 2 loads with a 60 gr. bullet but these he uses 2400, 11.5 gr for 2,200 fps. and 4227, 12.5 grs. for 2,150 fps. 
Start low and work up....
  

Chuck, I have Ackley's volumes from way back in the day. Colorful and inventive guy, and interesting reading. But Ackley, much like Elmer Keith, seemed to have a bent to maximize velocity from every cartridge they encountered.   While that may be a worthwhile endeavor, it gave me great reluctance to jump into any of their loading data.
Paul
  

Not just Ackley and Keith.  The other thing is the older powders weren't as hot as the same powder today.  My chrono has found this out many times.

Bert H. said

Zebulon said
Are you shooting that .38 Auto load in a Super?
  

No I am not.  I am shooting it in my 1917 production Colt Model 1902 Military.  I do have a heavier (aftermarket) recoil spring in it though.  I installed heavier (Wilson Combat) flat wire recoil springs in nearly all of my semi-auto pistols. 

The load I am using for it is .1 grain under the recommended starting load (per Lyman's 41st edition), and .5 grains under the Max suggested load.

For my Colt 1911A1, I have a 19-lb spring in it versus the standard 16-lb.  It enables me to shoot P+ loads without harming the gun.
Bert
  

The 1902 Military is my favorite of the early Browning/Colt semi autos.  Wish I had one that actually went to the Military.

Mike

Zebulon said
Are you shooting that .38 Auto load in a Super?
  

No I am not.  I am shooting it in my 1917 production Colt Model 1902 Military.  I do have a heavier (aftermarket) recoil spring in it though.  I installed heavier (Wilson Combat) flat wire recoil springs in nearly all of my semi-auto pistols. 

The load I am using for it is .1 grain under the recommended starting load (per Lyman's 41st edition), and .5 grains under the Max suggested load.

For my Colt 1911A1, I have a 19-lb spring in it versus the standard 16-lb.  It enables me to shoot P+ loads without harming the gun.

Bert

Chuck said
In P. O. Ackley's book on page 329 he shows a load for a 25-20 WCF with an 86 gr. bullet and 5.5 grs. of Unique for 1,795 fps.
8.5 grs. of 4227 will get 1,400 fps.  10.5 grs. of 4227 he says will get you 1,725 fps.  He also shows 2 loads with a 60 gr. bullet but these he uses 2400, 11.5 gr for 2,200 fps. and 4227, 12.5 grs. for 2,150 fps. 
Start low and work up....
  

Chuck, I have Ackley's volumes from way back in the day. Colorful and inventive guy, and interesting reading. But Ackley, much like Elmer Keith, seemed to have a bent to maximize velocity from every cartridge they encountered.   While that may be a worthwhile endeavor, it gave me great reluctance to jump into any of their loading data.

Paul

1. 9 MM - 115-gr ball with 5.0 grains

2. 38 ACP - 130-gr ball with 4.5 grains

3. 38 Spl - 158 SWC with 5.0 grains

4. 357 Mag - 125-gr JHP with 8.8 grains

5. 38 WCF - 180-gr XTP with 5.5 grains

6. 45 ACP - 230-gr ball with 5.5 grains.

Bert