Final comment for you to consider... Dupont (manufacturer) clearly stated not to use a filler for the original smokeless powders used to load black powder cartridges, and when they improved their formulas and introduced new powders in later years, at no time did they publish a recommendation to use fillers. 

IMR 4198 today (manufactured in Canada) is specifically formulated to be neither position or temperature sensitive (which is why it is a very consistent and versatile powder for its intended cartridges). 

In my (not so humble) opinion, you are making a mistake by not reading and adhering to what the powder manufacturer's recommendations are for their product.  Why do you insist on taking the contrary advice of some "gun crank" that wrote an article or book?  None of my older or newer reloading manuals advocate using fillers with IMR 4198, and Dupont certainly did no advocate it either... quite the opposite in fact.

Bert

I took the time to look at the 1907 Catalog.  I think I've narrowed down the next progression trying to get to the 4198.

We started with the No 1 powder and the 40% rule of thumb that was based upon this powder.  Now in 1907 Dupont was using Sharpshooter for the black powder calibers.  I don't have a lot of catalogs between 1907 and the 1930's that are not Winchester related.  I'll take a look when I can.

We leave next Thursday but I have a lot to do around the house before we go out of the country for a couple weeks. 

The key to an accurate cast bullet is a perfectly formed base: no voids, rounded corners or fins. In this case the fit of the moveable plug would need to be nearly perfect, the alignment pins and mould faces nearly perfect as well. It would also have survived decades of use and possible abuse. Yep, it would be pretty cool to see this mould. I enjoy casting with the Winchester moulds in my modest collection but I haven't had much luck finding one that hadn't been used hard or abused...but they're still pretty cool! I think you'd enjoy casting, Chuck. 

Mike

Mike

There is no "conjecture" with anything that I have quoted... I am simply repeating what Dupont has published, and it is therefore "the facts".  I personally choose to believe what Dupont clearly stated concerning using fillers with their powders, not what "others" have said or written.

Enjoy your vacation

Bert

Bert H. said

Chuck said
OK, I have some time between my wife's plans for me today.
Here is a page from the Ideal #15 catalog on page 130.  
Please read the second paragraph.  Dupont says to use filler. 
We have to remember this data was accurate at this time.  It does not mention the 40% rule of thumb or 4198.  Nor the fact that the modern equivalents produce more pressure at the old equivalent charge a lot of the time. It also says not to compress the load like I did the last firing.
  

Chuck,
That second paragraph does not say to use a filler... reread it carefully!  It very clearly states;
"the proper charge should be used and the air space left unfilled"
Bert
  

You could be right?  I read and re read that several times.  But if I'm wrong there still are credible sources that say to use a filler which I've always done where there is large empty space.  And these EX cases leave about a 2" void.

Bert H. said
Chuck,
You are back to the "apples vs. oranges".  Dupont did not introduce IMR 4198 powder until the 1930s.  The "IMR" powders replaced the older No. 1 and No. powders because they were "Improved".  While the older No. 1 and No. 2 powders undoubtedly needed fillers, the more advanced (modern) IMR powders do not when loaded properly.  I am of the opinion that you are creating excessive pressure by using a filler to pack the IMR powder into the base of the cartridge.
Bert
  

Yes, I know that but we need to find how they went from the  No. 1 and got to the 4198.  Then see what Dupont had to say.  This was the first time I had packed a load and Dupont says not to do it. I was taught not to do it.  But I did.  I will try another way to keep the powder down by the primer. "The more advanced (modern) IMR powders do not when loaded properly".  This is conjecture on your part.  We are looking for facts. 

I'm going on vacation.  Why don't you see if you can find the link between No. 1 powder and the 4198. 

Chuck said
OK, I have some time between my wife's plans for me today.
Here is a page from the Ideal #15 catalog on page 130.  
Please read the second paragraph.  Dupont says to use filler. 
We have to remember this data was accurate at this time.  It does not mention the 40% rule of thumb or 4198.  Nor the fact that the modern equivalents produce more pressure at the old equivalent charge a lot of the time. It also says not to compress the load like I did the last firing.
  

Chuck,

That second paragraph does not say to use a filler... reread it carefully!  It very clearly states;

"the proper charge should be used and the air space left unfilled"

Bert

IMR 4198 is generally considered not position sensitive for most rifle cartridges, including common straight-walled black powder cartridges like the .45-70, .40-70 Ballard, and .40-90 Ballard. This means that, within normal loading density and pressure limits, you don’t need to worry about the exact placement of the powder in the case for consistent ignition and performance.

Why it’s not position sensitive

• Burn rate and formulation: IMR 4198 is a fast-burning extruded rifle powder designed for consistent combustion when loaded within its published pressure range.
• Experience in older cartridges: Reloaders using it in .45-70 and similar straight-walled cartridges have reported no issues with vertical stringing or erratic ignition when powder placement varies.

You are back to the "apples vs. oranges".  Dupont did not introduce IMR 4198 powder until the 1930s.  The "IMR" powders replaced the older No. 1 and No. powders because they were "Improved".  While the older No. 1 and No. 2 powders undoubtedly needed fillers, the more advanced (modern) IMR powders do not when loaded properly.  I am of the very strong opinion that you are creating excessive pressure by using a filler to pack the IMR powder into the base of the cartridge.

Bert

Here is a page from the Ideal #15 catalog on page 130.  

Please read the second paragraph.  Dupont says to use filler. 

We have to remember this data was accurate at this time.  It does not mention the 40% rule of thumb or 4198.  Nor the fact that the modern equivalents produce more pressure at the old equivalent charge a lot of the time. It also says not to compress the load like I did the last firing.

Chuck said
I ordered 3 Ideal catalogs from Cornell Publications.  I received these last night.  Not only pictures and info on the mold but some other info I will post later.
Clarence told me a couple years back that I should buy the early 1900's Ideal catalogs when looking for the early smokeless loads. 
  

Good idea.  I have a couple of the older Lyman Ideal handbooks, but none that are just Ideal (pre-1925). What specific year catalogs did you acquire?

Bert