Winchester Collector - Forum: Winchester .22 Rim Fire

Zebulon on Interesting Model 121 (Post-'63 warning) :)

Sun, 20 Sep 2026 02:13:07 +0000

Mike,

Some corporate snakes and ladders:

Kimber Manufacturing, Inc. is the entity that has built all the very nice Kimber branded handguns and a line of rifles that are somewhat similar to those once offered by Kimber of Oregon, a corporation based in Clackamas, Oregon that was established by Jack Warne and his son, Gregg Warne, both now deceased.

Kimber of Oregon outgrew its working capital on the late Eighties and failed, when a wealthy timber industry investor was ruined by the Spotted Owl and could not contribute the promised refinancing funds. The corporation was liquidated in the early Nineties and its machines and tooling abandoned.

Leslie Edelman was the owner of Nationwide Sports Distributors and also of Jerico Precision Manufacturing, of Yonkers, NY, a CNC manufacturer. After KofO's demise, Edelman and Gregg Warne agreed to form Kimber of America to continue manufacturing the Kimber line of rifles in Yonkers. However, they did not get along and fairly quickly Edelman bought Gregg Warne out and began manufacturing a line of rifles sufficiently different that Warne could have no claim.

Edelman then merged Jerico with Kimber of America into a new entity, Kimber Manufacturing, and began making a line of 1911-based pistols as well as the rifles. Eventually, Edelman moved Kimber Manufacturing to Troy Alabama. The CNC capabilities of Jerico are what enabled the excellent quality of the Kimber pistols, at a less than custom price. In this respect, Edelman was well ahead of his time.

Bottom line: the NY/Alabama Kimber is not a continuation of the Oregon Kimber and the product lines of the two were never the same.

As a matter of interest for those familiar with Dwight Mann, who presently owns and operates Sportsman's Legacy in Montana, Dwight was Vice President of Sales for both Kimber of Oregon and Kimber of America. So he has worked for both the Warnes and Edelman and probably knows more about the history of the two companies than any man alive.

TXGunNut on Interesting Model 121 (Post-'63 warning) :)

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 23:58:26 +0000

I remember the Kimber 82's. I thought they looked like what a rimfire Winchester Model 70 would look like. Kimber also made the handgun world change their mind about what a 1911 should do out of the box. I was a bit late to that party, my Lou Williamson-built Series 70 1911 had many features later found in the initial Kimber offerings for quite a bit less money. Then other manufacturers woke up and smelled the coffee.

I'm looking forward to seeing this Model 121. While collector interest may not be there it helps tell the story of Winchester (and maybe Marlin), warts and all.

Mike

Zebulon on Interesting Model 121 (Post-'63 warning) :)

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 23:03:43 +0000

As a coda to this thread, here are images of the Sportco Model 62, from the barreled action of which the Winchester 320 was made; an auction photo of a Winchester Model 320; and a Kimber of Oregon Model 82B Super America grade rimfire - that uses a refined version of the Model 62 action.

Zebulon on Interesting Model 121 (Post-'63 warning) :)

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 21:46:26 +0000

At some point, I am guessing after the Marlin assets were sold out of the bankruptcy of Remington's controlling owner conglomerate to Sturm, Ruger & Co., Some or all of Marlin's R&D gun collection was sold off into the marketplace.

One of the rifles bought for evaluation by Marlin was a Savage Model 99A second generation rifle in 250-3000. It came up for auction on Gunbroker by a large Florida dealer/distributor. I was able to buy it and then, courtesy of a former employee who posted it on a Savage forum, to acquire a copy of the actual evaluation report. I'm sure all manufacturers do this but it was the first such written report I'd ever seen.

Zebulon on Interesting Model 121 (Post-'63 warning) :)

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 20:44:41 +0000

I've never owned a 320 but for a time collected Kimber of Oregon and had several 82 rifles. People kept putting me in an armlock and forcing me to take their money and now I have none. They were all nicely accurate and one in Hornet caliber took many Rio Grande gobblers. The 82 was simply a Sportco barreled action handed over to a custom riflemaker. I believe Duane Wiebe designed all the stocks except a limited production full stocked design that was done by Len Brownell. I had one of those and reluctantly let it go.

steve004 on Interesting Model 121 (Post-'63 warning) :)

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 20:26:44 +0000

I have a Model 320. All of my kids learned to shoot on it. I hadn't used it in a long time but did take it to the range earlier this year.

Jeremy P on Interesting Model 121 (Post-'63 warning) :)

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 19:38:35 +0000

Yes, I've seen the 300-family models and I agree, they're a different breed, almost nabbed a 320 last week but lost out. Solid rifles.

I figured this one was only *mildly* interesting...at least to me 😂

Zebulon on Interesting Model 121 (Post-'63 warning) :)

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 19:32:16 +0000

The post-63 Winchester bolt action rimfire series to look for is not the in-house designed 121 series - which are junk, in my less-than-humble opinion, but their successor, the Winchester 310/320 series. They look cheap but are anything but cheap. The 320 is the bolt action repeater and uses a barreled action imported from Australia from a company called Sportco. That may not ring a bell, but Sportco was the late, great Jack Warne's company before he moved to the United States and formed Kimber of Oregon to build the Model 82 - which is no more than the barreled action of the Winchester 320 with a better polish. They use the same box magazines. Winchester stocked the barreled actions and sold them as their Model 320 and they are VERY fine weapons. I have a pal who owns one and - in a moment of generosity - gave him my very rare 10-round Kimber of Oregon Model 82 magazine, which is made of unobtainium. When Kimber of Oregon went tango uniform, magazines became very hard to find for Model 82 owners. The smart ones figured out that new in the package Sportco magazines on eBay were the same thing and bought them all up. If you ever buy a 320 Winchester, make sure it has a magazine.

JWA on Unmarked see through scope base

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 18:56:45 +0000

The 60A Target came with a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman 55W) instead of sporting sights on the barrel like the 60 and 60A Sporting rifles.

Now, having said that, I personally have never seen a 60A Target rifle with a factory 5X scope but it was listed in the Winchester documentation as an available option and the same documentation specified the #5 front and rear see-through bases so I included it in my first response. I have seen (and have examples of) the 61 and 63 with the factory 5X scope and both do, in fact, have the #5 front and rear, confirming the rest of the information in that same Winchester document.

Regarding the usability of the #5 bases on the 60A Target I would have to dig one out and mock it up with the #5 bases to see if it would work but Winchester (in this case C.E. Blizard) was usually pretty good at specifying the correct bases in the literature.

Best Regards,

Realblag on Unmarked see through scope base

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 18:25:13 +0000

Thanks for the information laden reply JWA. I would love to mount it on a 67 but the only one of those I have was my grandfather’s. I hate drilling and tapping unmolested rifles but beater 67’s are plentiful. I’ll keep an eye out for a proper host rifle.
You mentioned 60a target. Are #5 bases the correct height bases for a rifle with sporting sights? Or will it need the slightly taller target sights to take advantage of the see through feature?

Jeremy P on Interesting Model 121 (Post-'63 warning) :)

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 16:49:23 +0000

I know not many folks will find a model 121 from the 1967-73 range to be too interesting, but I found this fairly like new example and found it interesting. It came in a Marlin box and the stock has a metal tag affixed that says "Property of Marlin Firearms Co. -- R&D 64".

Obviously I believe it to be sold from Marlin's own inventory, probably a research sample, etc. but fired very little. It is clearly built in the cheaper style of post-63 manufacturing, with its cheap "automatic" flip-up/down safety and snap-on style, springy sheet metal extractors. Loading design is neat and allows you to throw in a round into the chamber area without critical placement and have it slide right in.

Here's a link to the photos due to upload issues... https://photos.app.goo.gl/PH89FLz6MSxS6wbv5

JWA on Unmarked see through scope base

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 15:47:10 +0000

No problem, thanks!

Anthony #5411 on Unmarked see through scope base

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 15:38:03 +0000

Thanks Jeff!

I will leave it up, as you said it's a reference for the Redfield sights, and possibly might help some.

Tony

JWA on Unmarked see through scope base

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 15:03:57 +0000

Hi Tony,

That chart is for Redfield bases specifically for mounting the Redfield International or Olympic front and rear sights. While a useful tool for selecting the Redfield bases for Winchester target rifles such as the Model 75, 52 and 70 Target, I don't think it is related to the OP's question.

Keep it handy though for the next time 😉

Best Regards,

BillWyo on Need help to ID. sights package on Model 75 from 1939

Sat, 19 Sep 2026 14:15:04 +0000

Will also try that, as I have be a member for some time. Thanks for the help.