I recall Jim Supica writing, in his co-authored book on Smith & Wesson, that neither author could understand why anybody was willing to pay so much for moldy old cardboard. 

Of course, they did understand that such things are the inevitable extension of a "100% gun."  But what he was really saying was a warning. Where demand exists, there WILL be a supply and the Artful Dodger will help supply it. 

Any collector who fancies himself able to distinguish between a genuine and a really good artificially aged, expertly produced and stamped new cardboard carton....... is Fagin's meat. 

There is enough money in this game to attract a few very well educated,  technically skilled, and mechanically adept forgers. There is a black market for their stuff. They don't go to gun shows or sell guns. 

Yes, a lot of the phony hang tags and boxes are poorly done and readily distinguishable. 

But the sign of a great forgery is it's invisibility.  And the gun auction or the gun show is an ideal environment -- because the avid collector WANTS it to be true. His initial skepticism is a thin shield, easily penetrated by the seller because THAT seller typically believes what he's selling is real.

The forger's first buyer is Fagin, who assembles the package with guilty knowledge. The forger knows Fagin and will deal with him and not the public. If accused, the forger will defend his innocence by asserting Fagin represented himself as a collector. 

[For those in the insurance industry, this layered distribution of the fraudulent good is analogous to re-insurance, laying off a portion of risk by giving up some of the premium. ]

Fagin needs an initial "mark" a/k/a "rube" or "john" or "sucker" before the forgery goes public. He takes a lesser but safer profit from the mark and disappears. 

By the time the as-NIB gun appears on a gun show table or at auction,  both parties to a sale are likely innocent. Not always.

One of the questions to be asked and the answer verified is WHO SOLD IT TO YOU? For the kind of money involved, any hesitation on the Seller's part to disclose and allow investigation is a big red flag with a skull and crossbones. When it doubt, do without. 

I used to own this rifle, that is now listed on Guns International, and it did not have the box and paper work with it!!!  Model 61 Counterbore SN 250121

Michael

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-61/winchester-61-counterbore-shot-only-nib-1957-with-original-shot-hang-tag-featured-in-the-winchester-slide-action-book-holy-grail-of-61s.cfm?gun_id=103465154

Mike

1873man said
On this 22 in question it was a novel idea to keep the liner recessed from the end of the barrel so it hide liner from being spotted from the muzzle if it wasn't for the liner visible in the breech. A person use to the modern rifles with counter boring the muzzle wouldn't of thought twice about it being lined.
Bob
  

My point exactly Bob!

Tony

Bob

steve004 said

Anthony said

steve004 said
This is an example of the desirability of asking questions before purchasing rather than after.  We are here to help.  I think for most any of us that hang out here, just a quick glance at the photo of the muzzle would have yielded a definitive answer.  In the realm of antique and vintage Winchester collector, doing your homework is vital.  Take whatever you are told from a seller with a grain of salt.
Caveat Emptor.  
  

Good point Steve,
I think for many in today's world of the more modern firearms, a recessed bore might look normal to them, and when they choose to venture into these that's where they run into trouble, as verifying things here first, as you said, is important.
As we know these Antiques and older firearms are a whole different animal all together.
Tony
  

Tony, 
Aside from the recessed muzzle, the very close proximity of the magazine tube hanger to the muzzle screamed out to me.  
Early in my collecting life, I made mistakes (and may well still be making some) and the (painful) learning opportunity made a mark on me.  For me, the most important lesson to learn, was the importance of being humble about what I knew and what I didn't know.  
  

Steve,

You're spot on with you're assessments. As you and Bob both pointed out, we've all made collecting mistakes, and have learned from them. Living life itself is a lesson!

Tony

Anthony said

steve004 said
This is an example of the desirability of asking questions before purchasing rather than after.  We are here to help.  I think for most any of us that hang out here, just a quick glance at the photo of the muzzle would have yielded a definitive answer.  In the realm of antique and vintage Winchester collector, doing your homework is vital.  Take whatever you are told from a seller with a grain of salt.
Caveat Emptor.  
  

Good point Steve,
I think for many in today's world of the more modern firearms, a recessed bore might look normal to them, and when they choose to venture into these that's where they run into trouble, as verifying things here first, as you said, is important.
As we know these Antiques and older firearms are a whole different animal all together.
Tony
  

Tony, 

Aside from the recessed muzzle, the very close proximity of the magazine tube hanger to the muzzle screamed out to me.  

Early in my collecting life, I made mistakes (and may well still be making some) and the (painful) learning opportunity made a mark on me.  For me, the most important lesson to learn, was the importance of being humble about what I knew and what I didn't know.  

Bob

steve004 said
This is an example of the desirability of asking questions before purchasing rather than after.  We are here to help.  I think for most any of us that hang out here, just a quick glance at the photo of the muzzle would have yielded a definitive answer.  In the realm of antique and vintage Winchester collector, doing your homework is vital.  Take whatever you are told from a seller with a grain of salt.
Caveat Emptor.  
  

Good point Steve,

I think for many in today's world of the more modern firearms, a recessed bore might look normal to them, and when they choose to venture into these that's where they run into trouble, as verifying things here first, as you said, is important.

As we know these Antiques and older firearms are a whole different animal all together.

Tony

Caveat Emptor.  

M80 said
I just joined as a guest, and I just acquired my first 3 Winchester rifles.  

the one with questions is a model 1873. Received at warehouse May 31, 1887. 22 Long.     Round barrel.  S/N 237584B
the issue surrounds the barrel length.  
I was told when buying it that it is a rare custom order 21” barrel. 
I have submitted photos and it appears to be a custom factory order.  
the number 22 on the top of the barrel, proper brackets and distances etc.  
when using a dowel, inserted into the barrel, the measurement is  21 5/8  “ to the outside edge and 21 9/16   “ to the recessed edge at the end of the barrel.  
are there any sure fire measurements that would confirm one way or another??  
if it is a factory order, how would that impact the value?  
im in the process os drafting a letter to the Cody museum to request a copy of the ledger and to request a modification to the Cody letter that I have.  The letter says round barrel which would default to the standard length.  I want it to say 21 or 22” custom order.  
any comments are greatly appreciated.  I value your time and expertise.  
Mark 
  

Mark emailed me pictures and the the length of the forearm is 9 3/8",  barrel relined and barrel bobbed. 

Bob

TXGunNut said

Jeremy P said
Wow, Bob I LOVE it. What a hunk of steel! Hadn't seen it before and wasn't aware of special order .22s!
  

Looking at the letter one can't help but wonder if the weight was specified in the order. I like the concave barrel bottom.
 
Tony-
It looks like the corners are even with the sides of the receiver. Lots of pretty cool features.
 
Mike
  

I do not believe that the weight was specified in the order.  Instead, it was simply an observation that was recorded by the person who entered it in the ledger record.  I have found at least a few hundred similar entries in the Single Shot ledger records. The picture below is a copy of the Single Shot ledger page for serial numbers 2278 - 2280.  Note that all three list the weight of the rifle in the Remarks column.

Bert

Thanks guys for the compliments. I knew when I seen it I had to buy it. It wasn't on the table but the dealer knew I was in to 73's so he called me over to look at it.

Bob