martin rabeno said
Ok  Here's a question for you to ponder. It might be just be theoretical or real.
You are given a stripped down 1783 rifle frame and lower tang.  Serial number list it as a 1 of 1000 with the letter and a history of past owners.  Do you restore or not?
  

That, Martin, is a law professor's " hypothetical" posed to a classroom. It has no right answer. 

Here's my two cents. Despite what GCA '68 and the Code of Federal Regulations say, that's not a gun, it's a gun part. It was (presumably) once the frame of an especially selected rifle but is nothing special itself, now. The Cody Museum likely has no interest in displaying it nor would most serious Winchester collectors want to buy it for the purpose of displaying it. 

If Bloatus Q. Moneybags wants to hire, e.g. Doug Turnbull and his crew to make a new replica One of One Thousand Winchester 1873, incorporating that frame into the replica, the replica gun is just that and no more. I suspect a number of "fair to middling" 1873 specimens would have to be rounded up and parted out to avoid the disastrous marketing error of employing new Miroku parts. The horror. 

Motive becomes a factor. If you are cooking this replica up to sell it,  even referring to the job as a "restoration" is skating on the thin edge of ethics. If I have an original Shelby Cobra steering wheel and build an exact, mechanically identical replica around it, is the resulting replica a "restored Shelby Cobra" ? Of course not. Whether it can give you the Near-Death driving experience like a real one is irrelevant. 

If Bloatus wants to blow forty to fifty grand and give a new toy to his grandson, I'm all for it, particularly if our colleague Martin gets a slice of the cake. What Turnbull and Rabeno must do to avoid getting even more famous (but in an unpleasant way) is to make certain they mark up the interior of this baby with enough irreversible disclaimers of originality that Fagin's Priceless Antique Guns cannot possibly ever do a number on the collector community. I mean make it glow in the dark. And get the unfettered power to do that in writing in the commission contract. 

The power of "originality" of an object derives mostly from human imagination. If we believe a pencil sketch on paper of a dancer was drawn by Pablo Picasso, it gives us a sense of connection with the artist. The paper doesn't do that,  our imagination does.  This state of affairs makes Picasso collecting extremely vulnerable to forgery. 

The replica builder (and the necessary engraver, who should not rely on the builder to protect his interest) can pretty quickly assess a client's intention by insisting as a condition of accepting the commission, that he be given a free hand to permanently disqualify the resulting rifle from any possibility of being passed off as an original One of One Thousand rifle, but merely a rifle built on the frame of an original such rifle. 

If there is any hint that ultimate and signiicant financial gain is the driving motivation,  I think prudence dictates declining the commission.  While the builder and engraver are each entitled to compensation when he appears in Court as an expert witness, he is not entitled to be paid for time testifying as a fact witness -- which would be the case if Fagin's Priceless Antique Guns got sued for passing off this creation as an original.  

[This distinction has occasionally been brought home to physicians and surgeons who refuse to furnish medical records of a patient who is sueing the drunk driver who hit him,  unless the doctor is paid an outrageous sum for copying and furnishing the records. Solution: A subpoena duces tecum is then served on the good doctor to personally appear in Court with his precious records and sit on a hard bench in the hall until called to testify that these are, in fact, his records. He is a fact witness and is entitled to bukpis, the Yiddish expression that means literally "little beans" but by extension actually refers to goat feces.  Invariably the doctor, seeing his patient or surgical schedule about to go in the dumper,  agrees to sign the records affidavit he was given to begin with, waives any copying fee, and allows a courier to pick them up.]

martin rabeno said
Ok  Here's a question for you to ponder. It might be just be theoretical or real.
You are given a stripped down 1783 rifle frame and lower tang.  Serial number list it as a 1 of 1000 with the letter and a history of past owners.  Do you restore or not?
  

I'd sell it to someone that has the money to waste.

Bert H. said

Zebulon said
I think your Branch 3 folks are an especially discriminating subset of Branch 2. 
The "slightly used" condition 1873 Winchesters are getting mighty expensive. 
  

Maybe... but I am squarely in the "Branch 3" category, but I do not strictly adhere to just the "slightly used" condition.  I find the 75% to 95% condition guns to be the most desirable for my collection.
Bert
  

I agree 75% to 95% is the sweet spot for collectible guns you can use without diminishing their condition. In some cases, a permanent alteration -- say, a non-factory recoil pad and squared-off buttstock -- on an otherwise very high condition gun, while supposedly cutting its value "in half", can put it within my reach. Everybody finds his own balance and sometimes what the market thinks is just irrelevant to what's important to me. 

If a person had a 1 of 1000 original frame and spent the $$$ on having it brought back into it's original state, with as many original parts, and probably new wood, as I would expect, you'd have to spend a lot to get it done right, including the proper bands around the barrel, etc...I think it could sell for a lot of money at Auction, being described honestly and as such! The main difference is, it wouldn't have that original 1 of 1000, accurate barrel on it! IMHO!

Tony

martin rabeno said
Just a plain frame   No barrel or parts  serial number letters with Cody 
  

I doubt that it would be a wise financial choice to completely rebuild a Model 1873 1 of 1000 from essentially scratch, but until the total cost is arrived at, and the sale price is finalized, we will not ever know for sure. 

Bert

martin rabeno said
Ok  Here's a question for you to ponder. It might be just be theoretical or real.
You are given a stripped down 1783 rifle frame and lower tang.  Serial number list it as a 1 of 1000 with the letter and a history of past owners.  Do you restore or not?
  

Is it a plain case color frame, no engraving?

You are given a stripped down 1783 rifle frame and lower tang.  Serial number list it as a 1 of 1000 with the letter and a history of past owners.  Do you restore or not?

Zebulon said
I think your Branch 3 folks are an especially discriminating subset of Branch 2. 
The "slightly used" condition 1873 Winchesters are getting mighty expensive. 
  

Maybe... but I am squarely in the "Branch 3" category, but I do not strictly adhere to just the "slightly used" condition.  I find the 75% to 95% condition guns to be the most desirable for my collection.

Bert

The "slightly used" condition 1873 Winchesters are getting mighty expensive. 

Zebulon said
What I think we are illuminating are two different branches of the same hobby, both legitimately called "collecting." 
Branch 1 we will call the "Originalists" for lack of a better word. An originalist seeks, as an ideal, a collection of specimens in perfect original condition, each representing what it looked like as shipped from the factory, as closely as possible. The prototypical originalist cannot and does not shoot his collection because to do so would diminish condition. In instances where a gun lays unassembled, as new in its original box with original packing, he cannot risk assembling it. He derives pleasure from studying each of them in exquisite detail and delving into their histories. An originalist may or may not have a subordinate group of less-than-perfect firearms to shoot, reload for, hunt, etc. 
Branch 2 are the "Shooters."  A shooter is as fascinated with the brand and line of guns but cannot fathom just looking at them, studying them, and showing them to others. He cannot and will not keep his hands off of them and assembles a collection of specimens, preferably in high but not necessarily all-original condition, that he lovingly maintains but definitely uses for their intended purpose. He regards "originalism" as a religion that he respects but does not practice, as one might regard those who, by doctrinal necessity, practice coitus interruptus as a method of birth control. 
Obviously the above are aspirational and most of our members fall somewhere in between. 
  

You forgot Branch 3.  The ones that want original guns in slightly used condition and will shoot them no matter the cost.  The only safe queens I own are percussion pistols.  I hate cleaning black powder and don't want to hurt the cute ones. 

This is a problem that has perplexed me for years now and I'm running out of reasons why it could be happening. When the lever is moving and the round is lifted by the carrier the round stops as it hits the cartridge guides. Backing the lever off and trying it again does no good. When I loosen the left hand cartridge guide screw about half a turn it will allow the round to proceed up towards the chamber. However, when the rear of the cartridge, the rim, hits the rear of the cartridge guides, I must stop and back off the lever ever so slightly slightly before proceeding and then the round chambers. I've gotten to the point where I can do this very quickly, half a second delay, but it is annoying to say the least. It means I have to constantly adjust a loose cartridge screw while shooting. This happens with snap caps and live rounds. I've said this before but it's like a hitch in it's giddyup. 

I have replaced the left cartridge guide spring with a Numrich part but everything else is original. By the way, when I replaced the guide spring I couldn't see, or feel any difference between the two. Any ideas? Do the cartridge guides wear out? This gun is almost 130 years old but hadn't been fired in at least 75 years, maybe more. It was well used and may be wore out. I love this gun and want to fix the lone issue with it. Thanks in advance.