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steve004 said

Steff - 
Thanks for posting the photo of the box - you had the box and I had the cartridge!

I'd trade this box for an empty civilian 30-03, .45 ACP, .32 ACP, or .25 ACP box from that era. I've been looking for those forever.

Steff

Bert

steff said

Bert H. said
 
Can you post pictures of a WRACo 280 Ross cartridge?  I have never seen one of them.
  

Hi Bert,
I'm not Steve, and I don't have a cartridge, but I do have an empty box. Maybe that's of interest too?
Best regards from Germany,
Stefan

Steff - 

Thanks for posting the photo of the box - you had the box and I had the cartridge!

Bill - 

I heard Halger was very interested in not paying patent royalties.  Changing his cartridge from .288 to .284 literally changed the caliber and that was likely consequential form a patent pespective.  

Bo -

I think when we think back to the years surrounding the introduction of the .280 Ross, great leaps were made in velocity.  What followed terribly behind was bullet construction. Driving poorly constructed bullets at high velocity - while dangerous big game hunting - did produce some loss of animal life but also some loss of human life.  The advancements made in bullet construction is really quite remarkable.  Particularly the premium bullets than can now be had.

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And here's a Model 1905 bolt next to an M-10 bolt:

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Both are mouse traps.  In fact, one snapped shut when I laid it on the table

Bert H. said
Steve,
Can you post pictures of a WRACo 280 Ross cartridge?  I have never seen one of them.
While we are on the subject of obsolete cartridges, does anyone here own a rifle chambered for the 7x61mm Sharpe & Hart cartridge?  I have 4-boxes of factory new (old) Norma 7x61 S&H empty cases sitting in my reloading supply locker that need a new home (somebody that can use them).
Bert
  

Here's a photo of a WRACO .280 cartridge as well as photos next to a .270 WCF:

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Bert H. said
 
Can you post pictures of a WRACo 280 Ross cartridge?  I have never seen one of them.

Hi Bert,

I'm not Steve, and I don't have a cartridge, but I do have an empty box. Maybe that's of interest too?

Best regards from Germany,

Stefan

Thanks for remembering the name I couldn't -- Halger.  I didn't know they had reduced groove diameter to .284.  Either Phil Sharpe or somebody else got some internal ballistics tests run on the 280 Halger after the war. My understanding is (1) the published velocities were created on a typewriter; and (2) in a pressure barrel the breech pressures were hair-raising.  

Like women's skirt lengths,  the popularity of various sets of external ballistics rises and falls with every generation. 

Now thst I am deaf and arthritic, 7/8 ounce 12 gauge loads have become remarkably effective -- something our British cousins knew when the Dodo Bird was still in season. 

My father's generation thought the 30 Govt '06 was adequate for the big bears and anything else in America.  While still in school, I'd begun to read climbing a tree was safer than hunting Grizzlies with one.  A 338 Magnum was the minimum prudence demanded. (I still have no experience in such matters and have no idea. But I do know what high intensity noise did to me.)

It comforts me to know the Fearless Magnum craze started in England and Greater Deutschland (to include Austira) rather than America. If you doubt me, consider the 240 H&H Magnum and, of course, Halger but also some pretty ambitious metrics created by DWM. 

Roy Weatherby and his big blasters did not come into this World sui generis. By all accounts a really nice man liked by everyone, he had a grand imagination and a child's delight in new things. Did you know he was interested in photography, model railroading, and ham radio - as well as learning to run mills and lathes and gunsmithing in his garage? That kind of enthusiasm is infectious and with his capacity to make anyone a friend, it made him a salesman sales managers dream about. 

Roy's legacy includes my hearing loss, although Elmer Keith gets part of the blame. 

I only hope the current craze for long, narrow bullets at moderate velocity with attendant mild blast and recoil, and longer barrels and suppressors, lasts long enough to spare my grandchildren their hearing. 

In what time remains to me, I'm going to explore what can be done with a 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser cartridge in a 24" 1-10  barrel.  And whether I can throttle back a 9 pound Winchester 45-90 Model 1886 enough to.be fun to shoot. 

And I'm going to burn through all the 22 long rifle ammo I can afford. 

Can you post pictures of a WRACo 280 Ross cartridge?  I have never seen one of them.

While we are on the subject of obsolete cartridges, does anyone here own a rifle chambered for the 7x61mm Sharpe & Hart cartridge?  I have 4-boxes of factory new (old) Norma 7x61 S&H empty cases sitting in my reloading supply locker that need a new home (somebody that can use them).

Bert

Zebulon said
Thanks for the detailed description of that assembly, Steve. I think Sir Charles likely thought sportsmen too "stupid" to correctly assemble and install the bolt of his rifle deserved to get a one-shot lobotomy. A natural sorting out of the unworthy. 
There was a prewar German manufactured rifle advertised for a proprietary cartridge said to be supernaturally fast. It turned out the silly numbers couldn't be duplicated but the cartridge - which was producing very fast velocities for that day -- was just a copy of the 280 Ross. The name of the firm was made up from the names of two partners.
Didn't some of the London and Birmingham gunmakers offer their Mauser action bolt guns chambered for the 280 Ross? Westley-Richards? Holland? 
Winchester would have done well to offer the Model 54 in 280 Ross, although might have dimmed the luster of the 270. I'll bet they thought about it.
  

Bill, Kevin and Anthony -

I'm glad my post and information was of interest.  It is intriguing to consider the extent to which Winchester may have considered offering their Model 54 in the .280 Ross.  

Across the pond, there were other high velocity cartridges.  For example, there was the .280 Jeffery, which pushed a 140 grain bullet at 3,000 fps.  This was developed by W.J. Jeffery and Co. in about 1913 and no doubt was inspired by .280 Ross ballistics which came on the scene about six years earlier.  It was a rimless bottlenecked case and was based on necking the .333 Jeffery case down to .288.  

The .280 Halger HV magnum came out in the mid-1920's out of Hamburg, Germany and Halbe & Gerlich were chambering Mauser M98 rifles for it.  With the agenda of avoiding paying patent royalties, they took the Ross case and necked it down to .284 and increased case capacity by about 10 water grains.  This allowed them to bump up the powder charges - very likely to unsafe levels.  Those powder charges probably didn't reach advertised velocities:

100 grain at 3,900 fps

143 grain at 3,510 fps

180 grain at 3,043 fps

We already have enough skepticism that the original .280 Ross loadings reached advertised velocities.  There is even more skepticism over Halger's velocity claims. I will also note the Mauser action was not as strong as the Ross M-10 action, so safety is an even greater question mark.  I have confidence Winchester gave these safety considerations serious thought as they pondered potential exotic chamberings for their M54.

Not being a Ross rifle collector, but an enthusiast just the same, you have enlightened and educated me over the past few years on the rifle and it's design.

Tony