steve004 said

That was great information.  I appreciated the detailed measurements and the comprehensiveness of your post. 
I see you've been around here for about 18 years.  We don't often hear from you but when we do, it's notable.  
  

You are kindly welcome. I don't post much here, as there are many fine folks with much greater knowledge regarding all things Winchester than I have. But on those rare occasions when I feel I have something useful and constructive to add to the conversation, I do my best.

Thank you for the kind words.

On an additional note, it appears there was a change to the .22 W.C.F. cartridge's O.A.L. From the earliest appearance through early 1907 (Catalog No.73), the catalog illustration, as well as cartridge box labels, showed the .22 W.C.F. with the bullet seated with an exposed groove just ahead of the case mouth. In 1908 (Catalog No.74) the cartridge illustration showed the cartridge with a bullet having an obvious profile change and a larger flat on the nose. If you compare the 1907 and earlier illustrations to those from 1908 and later, there is a noticeable - and measurable - difference between them. This difference is roughly equivalent to the difference between the factory Winchester cartridges I have (which, like the early illustrations, have the exposed groove) and the factory drawing of 1911... just shy of 1/16-inch (0.0625-inch), somewhere in the neighborhood of the 0.058-inch difference between my measurements and the factory drawing. 

And, yes, I'm aware that measuring the illustrations in the catalogs is imprecise and subject to errors in printing, but I've found that if you compare actual cartridges to them, side-by-side, they're not that far off. 

Cartridge box labels also reflect this change, but just a bit later (the earliest label date I have seen is 4-10). I attribute this to Winchester simply using up stock of older labels.

Jim

30gov03 said
The elevator mortise in my Model 1873 (mfg. in 1892) measures 1.627 inches in length. A factory drawing of the .22 W.C.F., dated Feb. 10, 1911, indicates a max. O.A.L. of 1.630 inches. I have a handful of original Winchester-manufacture .22 W.C.F. cartridges which measure 1.688-inches O.A.L. I have also loaded .22 W.C.F. cartridges, using bullets from an original Winchester bullet mold which were seated using an original Winchester loading tool. These cartridges measure 1.678-inches O.A.L.
SAAMI O.A.L. min./max. for the centerfire Model 1873 chamberings: .32-20 - 1.540 / 1.592; .38-40 - 1.560 / 1.592; .44-40 - 1.540 / 1.592
At least in the case of my Model 1873, a cartridge O.A.L. of 1.592-inches leaves only 0.032-inches of clearance to prevent the cartridge dragging against the ends of the elevator mortise. With an O.A.L. of 1.630-inches, as shown in the 1911 drawing, there would be a 0.003-inch interference. It MIGHT feed, but not without some difficulty (and aggravation). The original Winchester cartridges I have, as well as my reloads, would be an outright impossibility.
Could the Model 1873 be made to feed .22 W.C.F.? Of course it could, and Winchester certainly could have done it. I kind of hope there was at least one made, sitting quietly forgotten and yet to be rediscovered in a dark and dusty corner. Maybe Winchester considered it, cataloged it, then quietly abandoned it. Too bad, 'cause I'd really like for there to be one.
Jim

Jim -

That was great information.  I appreciated the detailed measurements and the comprehensiveness of your post. 

I see you've been around here for about 18 years.  We don't often hear from you but when we do, it's notable.  

You mention Winchester could have made the .22 WCF feed through the action.  I agree and when I think about this, I reflect on the effort Winchester went through to make the .50 caliber cartridges feed through the Model 1886 action. They did it - but it wasn't easy.

It sure is a very nice looking rifle

I don't have the knowledge or experience to comment on the originality.

Roger - you have added some very interesting and appealing rifles to your collection over the years.  You've enjoyed them - and that's what counts.  

I often reflect on how my enjoyment of a piece can get derailed by that, "fussy collector" section of my brain that can be a real downer. 

Louis Luttrell said
At the risk of showing everyone that I am a total fool, I did buy this gun earlier this year.  "Super Grade Carbine" 30 GOV'T'06 (s/n 21164).  I am NOT saying that I believe ANY Super Grade Carbine to be genuine, but at least this one is made of all the right parts/finishes and has handling wear/marks consistent with the parts being together a long time.  IMHO it's what a 1938 Super Grade Carbine SHOULD look like if there ever were a "real" one...

Bo Rich said
Louis,  Like many Model 70 Collectors when I see a Super Grade Carbine I automatically assume that it is a made up gun.  If Winchester in fact made a Super Grade Carbine I would expect it to be in .30Gov’t06 chambering.  Since we know that this is by far the most popular chambering you would think that you would see more Super Grade Carbines in that chambering.  This is not the case.  If Winchester made such  a thing,  I agree that it would be the gun that you posted.  
  

Lou,

I like everything about you're example. Bo brings up some good points also. You gents have made me aware enough to surly be careful out there, as my reckless nature can sometimes get me in trouble. LOL!

Tony

Howthehell did you get that photo of me at Bert's place (Robin's Nest) in Cody last month?  I didn't see you there...  You must have spies everywhere!!!  I guess bourbon has that effect on some people...  Not that I look much better sober...

John Mills was great in that role!!!  

Lou

Bert H. said

Louis Luttrell said

Zebulon said
If not a seal, than perhaps a Sucker of the Year Award, self-selected, to be presented with solemn dignity at the evening Cody dinner: 
A head and shoulders bust of Michael the village idiot, whose Academy Award-winning character was portrayed in David Lean's 1970 film, Ryan's Daughter, by the great actor John Mills.
  

Hi Zeb-
Are you saying that I resemble that remark???  Maybe I can be the first annual WACA Village Idiot Award Winner!!!
Lou
  

Hey, I want in on that contest!
Bert
  

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0590055/mediaviewer/rm3119599872/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk

SAAMI O.A.L. min./max. for the centerfire Model 1873 chamberings: .32-20 - 1.540 / 1.592; .38-40 - 1.560 / 1.592; .44-40 - 1.540 / 1.592

At least in the case of my Model 1873, a cartridge O.A.L. of 1.592-inches leaves only 0.032-inches of clearance to prevent the cartridge dragging against the ends of the elevator mortise. With an O.A.L. of 1.630-inches, as shown in the 1911 drawing, there would be a 0.003-inch interference. It MIGHT feed, but not without some difficulty (and aggravation). The original Winchester cartridges I have, as well as my reloads, would be an outright impossibility.

Could the Model 1873 be made to feed .22 W.C.F.? Of course it could, and Winchester certainly could have done it. I kind of hope there was at least one made, sitting quietly forgotten and yet to be rediscovered in a dark and dusty corner. Maybe Winchester considered it, cataloged it, then quietly abandoned it. Too bad, 'cause I'd really like for there to be one.

Jim

steve004 said

Bert H. said

Anthony said

Bert H. said

Anthony said
Evidently working on another deal!!!
  

I most likely was pondering a deal... but that is nothing new!
  

There's no grass growing under you're feet my friend, I'm glad to see!
Tony
  

At my advancing age, I don't dare to stop moving for too long... if I do, the roots will most likely set in too deep and I will be forever stuck in place!
Bert
  

I'm careful where I lay down.  I figure it won't take too long before someone starts shoveling dirt on me.
  

I sure can understand and agree with, and what you guy's are Laying down also!

Tony

Bert H. said

Anthony said

Bert H. said

Anthony said
Evidently working on another deal!!!
  

I most likely was pondering a deal... but that is nothing new!
  

There's no grass growing under you're feet my friend, I'm glad to see!
Tony
  

At my advancing age, I don't dare to stop moving for too long... if I do, the roots will most likely set in too deep and I will be forever stuck in place!
Bert
  

I'm careful where I lay down.  I figure it won't take too long before someone starts shoveling dirt on me.

Louis Luttrell said

Zebulon said
If not a seal, than perhaps a Sucker of the Year Award, self-selected, to be presented with solemn dignity at the evening Cody dinner: 
A head and shoulders bust of Michael the village idiot, whose Academy Award-winning character was portrayed in David Lean's 1970 film, Ryan's Daughter, by the great actor John Mills.
  

Hi Zeb-
Are you saying that I resemble that remark???  Maybe I can be the first annual WACA Village Idiot Award Winner!!!

Lou
  

Hey, I want in on that contest!

Bert

Zebulon said
If not a seal, than perhaps a Sucker of the Year Award, self-selected, to be presented with solemn dignity at the evening Cody dinner: 
A head and shoulders bust of Michael the village idiot, whose Academy Award-winning character was portrayed in David Lean's 1970 film, Ryan's Daughter, by the great actor John Mills.
  

Hi Zeb-

Are you saying that I resemble that remark???  Maybe I can be the first annual WACA Village Idiot Award Winner!!!

I never said my SG Carbine is "real", nor did I say I believe it to be "real"...  Only that if it was "upgraded" outside the factory (likely) it was done with the right parts (unlike the GB listing).

Cheers,

Lou

Stultus et pecunia eius cito separantur

If a shorter saying, classicly known to both law and medicine, is preferred:

In dubio abstine

For the seal's central image, an over-polished and re-blued Winchester Model 70 carbine with a post-1963 floorplate and Williams front and rear sights.

If not a seal, than perhaps a Sucker of the Year Award, self-selected, to be presented with solemn dignity at the evening Cody dinner: 

A head and shoulders bust of Michael the village idiot, whose Academy Award-winning character was portrayed in David Lean's 1970 film, Ryan's Daughter, by the great actor John Mills.