Bob 

Anthony said
Steve,
I also was looking at that list and didn't see the OP's firearm listed.
I'm in agreement with the arguments here as the OP, having documentation, verifying the status from Cody as the Pre-1899 Antique M-1873 left the factory as is, with the 14 inch barrel, should be automatically on the C & R List! IMHO!
With the proper documentation verifying that it hasn't been altered or a cut down version of a longer barreled rifle.
It's a collectable antique rifle and nothing more. For some reason, any firearm shorter than the 16 inch barrel, the ATF seems to have an issue with. We as a collectors group, would most certainly like to see the ATF, make some changes in these regards.
The other issue is the different and vague answers when trying to find out more from this Government agency. Some may consider it a grey area, but it needs to be addressed.
We have an honest collector here trying to get some answers and all we can do is suggest he goes to the ATF, and get this thing on the list, or at least exempt with current paper work! 
Tony
  

Tony - but given the antique status, does it even need to be on the C&R list at all?  Technically, it is an antique rifle, not a C&R or modern rifle.  C&R rules shouldn't apply.  

Back to the list I posted earlier, I should have highlighted that the 14 inch barreled Model 1886 they list, is a .33.  That caught my attention.  I sure would like to know more about that rifle including its other features, who bought it, what it was used for etc.  Anyone here have it?

It surely does seem this shipper is into substantial profit.  Having lived a while now, it's my observation that when it comes to capitalism, pricing is much more determined by whatever the market will tolerate vs. morality or ethics.  I see that for those auction houses that outsource their shipping, buyers are left in much more unaware/unsuspecting vulnerable situation.  The auction house can wash their hands of it pointing out bidders were made aware that they don't handle the shipping.  It's a set-up to get stung.  I don't care for it at all and I would have not appreciated being in the situation you found yourself in.

Rick C said
To elaborate further on my comments, that was the answer I got from an agent out of the field office in Bangor, Maine a few years back. You probably get a different answer from a different agent so…
  

Agreed Rick!

In speaking with different agents and getting different answers, it would be nice to get one that was willing to work with the owner involved in search of getting things properly straightened out, but I feel unfortunately with delays and getting passed off by most, it's a long and arduous trail!

A paper trail of emails, might be the way to go, and getting the right work accomplished, MIGHT get done!

Tony

steve004 said

Buck94 said
Well the plot thickens. They lowered their rate to $380. Still crazy high so I called in and was speaking to the young lady who answered the phone and questioned the rate. The owner comes on the line and went off on me. He said his Fed Ex rate alone was $120. Possible I suppose but when I told him there are better rates he said it is impossible because he is direct through FedEx. I don’t know if he is stupid, lazy or a liar but I then asked why he was adding over $250 on top of the shipping rate and he said he deserved to make money. Heck, I’m a capitalist and I agree but when I told him that is a ridiculous mark up he told me he would take it back to the auction house and hung up on me. Breaks my heart! In 15 minutes I had googled the closest FFL to the auction house, called them and they agreed to ship it to me for 1/3rd what this clown was trying to charge me. Interestingly the auction house or at least the person I spoke with there didn’t seem to care he is taking advantage of their clients. Makes me wonder if he is kicking back to them and that is part of the reason for the outrageous prices? Happy ending for me though!
  

I've had minimal experience buying from auction houses.  As I understand it, some auction houses have their own staff do the shipping.  Other auction houses have the shipping service performed by an outside business.  They receive payment for that service from the winning bidder.  That payment needs to cover the actual shipping charge and insurance as well as the time for their employees to pack the gun up, perform record keeping, accounting oversight, pay someone to answer the phone etc. etc.  And of course as a business, a profit would be expected to be built in - and it needs to be profitable enough to entice someone to do it vs. do something else that would be more profitable.  This is making more sense to me than when I first read the original post.
As to the gun itself, the "in the ordinance pipeline" .... An intriguing thought anyway.
I'm glad you like the gun.  As you say, you were able to purchase it for much less than other examples you pursued.  
  

You are correct some auction houses do handle their own shipping in house. In this case, they did not and outsourced it to an independent mail house who also holds an FFL to ship firearms and he was billing me direct. I agree with your overall statements but Let me offer an example that sums up perfectly your contention that it has to be profitable enough to do it. Gas in my area costs about $3.55 at almost every gas station you pass. Maybe it is $3.45 at some and $3.65 at others and one can reasonably assume that covers all the expenses necessary for a business to be profitable. This shop trying to charge me $450 to mail a firearm is the equivalent of a gas station trying to charge $10.50 a gallon when every other shop in town charges 1/3rd of that price. The FFL who mailed it to me charged $155 - $55 postage, $50 pack and transfer and $50 because they had to go pick it up, otherwise the apples to apples cost is only $105 vs the Original $450 or reduced $380. It gets worse when you break it down and compare the $50 pack and transfer I was charged vs the $400 pack and transfer fee the original shop wanted. Anyone on here make $400 an hour? How about $1600 an hour because I could easily box, label and mail 4 rifles an hour? I think the truth is this guy is just an immoral jerk who is trying to take advantage of captive auction clients who don’t know any better. 

I also was looking at that list and didn't see the OP's firearm listed.

I'm in agreement with the arguments here as the OP, having documentation, verifying the status from Cody as the Pre-1899 Antique M-1873 left the factory as is, with the 14 inch barrel, should be automatically on the C & R List! IMHO!

With the proper documentation verifying that it hasn't been altered or a cut down version of a longer barreled rifle.

It's a collectable antique rifle and nothing more. For some reason, any firearm shorter than the 16 inch barrel, the ATF seems to have an issue with. We as a collectors group, would most certainly like to see the ATF, make some changes in these regards.

The other issue is the different and vague answers when trying to find out more from this Government agency. Some may consider it a grey area, but it needs to be addressed.

We have an honest collector here trying to get some answers and all we can do is suggest he goes to the ATF, and get this thing on the list, or at least exempt with current paper work! 

Tony

Buck94 said
Well the plot thickens. They lowered their rate to $380. Still crazy high so I called in and was speaking to the young lady who answered the phone and questioned the rate. The owner comes on the line and went off on me. He said his Fed Ex rate alone was $120. Possible I suppose but when I told him there are better rates he said it is impossible because he is direct through FedEx. I don’t know if he is stupid, lazy or a liar but I then asked why he was adding over $250 on top of the shipping rate and he said he deserved to make money. Heck, I’m a capitalist and I agree but when I told him that is a ridiculous mark up he told me he would take it back to the auction house and hung up on me. Breaks my heart! In 15 minutes I had googled the closest FFL to the auction house, called them and they agreed to ship it to me for 1/3rd what this clown was trying to charge me. Interestingly the auction house or at least the person I spoke with there didn’t seem to care he is taking advantage of their clients. Makes me wonder if he is kicking back to them and that is part of the reason for the outrageous prices? Happy ending for me though!
  

I've had minimal experience buying from auction houses.  As I understand it, some auction houses have their own staff do the shipping.  Other auction houses have the shipping service performed by an outside business.  They receive payment for that service from the winning bidder.  That payment needs to cover the actual shipping charge and insurance as well as the time for their employees to pack the gun up, perform record keeping, accounting oversight, pay someone to answer the phone etc. etc.  And of course as a business, a profit would be expected to be built in - and it needs to be profitable enough to entice someone to do it vs. do something else that would be more profitable.  This is making more sense to me than when I first read the original post.

As to the gun itself, the "in the ordinance pipeline" .... An intriguing thought anyway.

I'm glad you like the gun.  As you say, you were able to purchase it for much less than other examples you pursued.  

Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, S/N 719510B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, S/N ATF-33300-252, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1876, cal. .45-70, Northwest Mounted Police Carbine, S/N 46198, with an 8-
inch barrel, no magazine tube.
Winchester, Model 1885 carbine, cal. .25-35, S/N 104783, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1885 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 75808, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1885 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 103509, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1885 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, S/N 102429, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1886, cal. .33 WCF, S/N 149317A, with 14-inch barrel.

There is a Model 1885 carbine listed here with antique status.  But tangentially what interested me the most was a Model 1886 with a 14-inch barrel!  Of course it wouldn't have antique status but a 14 inch barrel!  And obviously determined to be original 🙂 

Oh, and a Model 1876 Northwest Mounted Police Carbine - in .45-70 - with an 8 inch barrel!  No magazine tube.  Was it ever there?  I'd be fascinated to know more details about this carbine.

Rick C said

steve004 said

Anthony said

Rick C said

Anthony said
Bob,
Those are nice examples to see as a reference.
Thanks for posting it!
 
Tony
  

Great opportunity for me to give a shout out to Bob(1873man). He has helped me immensely over the years with questions and concerns about the model 1873, and saved me more than once dealing with undesirable sellers with fake guns, forged serial numbers, letters, etc.
I can say the same for Bert, JWA, and others on various models. Just another good reason for anyone new thinking of joining WACA. You will save money just for the above alone. 
  

Rick,
I can truly appreciate you're kind words for Bob, and the others that you mentioned, as I can say the same and am in full agreement with you! 
Tony
  

I echo Rick and Tony's comments about Bob's tremendous knowledge and helpfulness.
On the topic of this 14 inch M1873, I've never owned a rifle or carbine with barrel under 16 inches so can't claim extensive knowledge.  So - does a 14 inch carbine still require specific ATF clearance - even though it has antique status?  
  

Steve, my thoughts are no it doesn’t need special clearance. it was always my understanding that the BATF considers any firearm Proven pre-1899, as an antique and they don’t deal with it. Personally, if I have a rifle with a barrel less than 16”, I want proof of a BATF letter or Cody letter or some form of provenance from the factory or historical document proving same so that I don’t find out the hard way.
I guess if you’re transferring, selling, purveying, etc. the onus is on the owner to make sure, and then the buyer or person in possession. Bert or Bob or someone can probably confirm or correct me. 
  

Rick -

What puzzles me is the ATF list:

Section III – Firearms removed from the provisions of the National Firearms Act and
classified as curios or relics, still subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, the
Gun Control Act of
1968……………………………………………………………………………...………. 22

Here's an excerpt and some of these Model 1873's have antique serial numbers:

Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .32, S/N 637480, having 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .32 WCF, S/N 382028, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .32 WCF, S/N 637429B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .32-20 WCF, S/N 695081 B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44, S/N 131590A, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 85502, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 190542B, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 526199, with 13 1/2-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 604237B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 688628B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 691388B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 710976B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 717912 B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 718977B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, S/N 88502, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, S/N 579080B, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, S/N 612999B, with 14-inch barrel.

steve004 said

Anthony said

Rick C said

Anthony said
Bob,
Those are nice examples to see as a reference.
Thanks for posting it!
 
Tony
  

Great opportunity for me to give a shout out to Bob(1873man). He has helped me immensely over the years with questions and concerns about the model 1873, and saved me more than once dealing with undesirable sellers with fake guns, forged serial numbers, letters, etc.
I can say the same for Bert, JWA, and others on various models. Just another good reason for anyone new thinking of joining WACA. You will save money just for the above alone. 
  

Rick,
I can truly appreciate you're kind words for Bob, and the others that you mentioned, as I can say the same and am in full agreement with you! 
Tony
  

I echo Rick and Tony's comments about Bob's tremendous knowledge and helpfulness.
On the topic of this 14 inch M1873, I've never owned a rifle or carbine with barrel under 16 inches so can't claim extensive knowledge.  So - does a 14 inch carbine still require specific ATF clearance - even though it has antique status?  
  

Steve, my thoughts are no it doesn’t need special clearance. it was always my understanding that the BATF considers any firearm Proven pre-1899, as an antique and they don’t deal with it. Personally, if I have a rifle with a barrel less than 16”, I want proof of a BATF letter or Cody letter or some form of provenance from the factory or historical document proving same so that I don’t find out the hard way.

I guess if you’re transferring, selling, purveying, etc. the onus is on the owner to make sure, and then the buyer or person in possession. Bert or Bob or someone can probably confirm or correct me. 

Rick C said

Anthony said
Bob,
Those are nice examples to see as a reference.
Thanks for posting it!
 
Tony
  

Great opportunity for me to give a shout out to Bob(1873man). He has helped me immensely over the years with questions and concerns about the model 1873, and saved me more than once dealing with undesirable sellers with fake guns, forged serial numbers, letters, etc.
I can say the same for Bert, JWA, and others on various models. Just another good reason for anyone new thinking of joining WACA. You will save money just for the above alone. 
  

Yes Bob is literally THE 1873 man! 

God bless him, Bert and others including Micheal Puzio who keep meticulous records and ensure this sport stays reputable by verifying and checking to see if guns are the “Real Mcoy”. We owe them a great debt and I love their passion for these guns! 

Yes Ricky… I too can think of a couple crows off the top of my head that roost up here in Canada who sell and circulate fraudulent guns and definitely bring WACA and the sport in disrepute by faking CODY letters and misleading new buyers who do not have access to the “boys” on WACA to help and guide them, and provide another and pairs of eyes before making a big purchase 

Anthony said

Rick C said

Anthony said
Bob,
Those are nice examples to see as a reference.
Thanks for posting it!
 
Tony
  

Great opportunity for me to give a shout out to Bob(1873man). He has helped me immensely over the years with questions and concerns about the model 1873, and saved me more than once dealing with undesirable sellers with fake guns, forged serial numbers, letters, etc.
I can say the same for Bert, JWA, and others on various models. Just another good reason for anyone new thinking of joining WACA. You will save money just for the above alone. 
  

Rick,
I can truly appreciate you're kind words for Bob, and the others that you mentioned, as I can say the same and am in full agreement with you! 
Tony
  

I echo Rick and Tony's comments about Bob's tremendous knowledge and helpfulness.

On the topic of this 14 inch M1873, I've never owned a rifle or carbine with barrel under 16 inches so can't claim extensive knowledge.  So - does a 14 inch carbine still require specific ATF clearance - even though it has antique status?  

Rick C said

Anthony said
Bob,
Those are nice examples to see as a reference.
Thanks for posting it!
 
Tony
  

Great opportunity for me to give a shout out to Bob(1873man). He has helped me immensely over the years with questions and concerns about the model 1873, and saved me more than once dealing with undesirable sellers with fake guns, forged serial numbers, letters, etc.
I can say the same for Bert, JWA, and others on various models. Just another good reason for anyone new thinking of joining WACA. You will save money just for the above alone. 
  

Rick,

I can truly appreciate you're kind words for Bob, and the others that you mentioned, as I can say the same and am in full agreement with you! 

Tony