TXGunNut said

antler1 said
How does everybody think the new political climate will affect the collectible Winchester market? I felt the recent Poulin auction seemed soft on many average grade  Winchesters.
  

Is that more so than lately, Pat? Seems that section has been soft for awhile. If it gets any softer I'll just keep the few I have for sale. No desire to work hard to give them away. The new gun market will be very strong if history is any indication. 
 
Mike
  

I re-read these posts and I missed the word “average”.

It depends what your definition of the word “average” is, but, unfortunately, since the Election of 2024, this segment has declined by a third and stayed there.  This includes “average” Winchesters as well as above average and well above average Winchester rifles.  I think the above average and well above average stuff is what most of us on this forum collect—and it’s been, unfortunately, hit the hardest.

Believe average Winchesters—never had much value to begin with, can’t be hit that hard, if at all, there’s always someone of limited means who scrapes together $500 just to have a Winchester, even if it’s heavily buffed and poorly reblued.

Average Winchester rifles, worth a bit more, if they have been flat or decreased slightly, the value is limited, and, therefore, is the hit.  These are the multitude of old Winchester rifles you see at gun shows, with “patina”—grey receivers, dull bluing on barrels, honest use.

The crème de la crème—this is the engraved, inlaid, special order high condition stuff you see at RIA.  Substantial 5 figure to 7 figure stuff.  Sets records at each and every auction, investment grade stuff, actually are investments, there is a return on investment there.

Which leaves the above average and well above average stuff, the Winchesters most of us collect on this forum, bright bluing still present, original finish throughout, a few special order features, perhaps, this segment has been hit hard.  It’s purely demographics, go to gun shows and look at all the grey hair.

The younger folks into this stuff have little money and dabble in the junk or hit it big and play the RIA game.  The folks like us who dabble in the mid range to higher end stuff are shooting black plastic at the range.

It is presently within the power of the Senate Republican caucus to do the same and there are voices urging that action, so a number of Repulican bills could be signed into law before January. Anyone who disagrees with them is called naive, an idiot or worse. 

Why has neither side done it when they could have. 

Because of what it would lead to.  There are enough responsible Senators on both sides of the chamber who understand the purpose of the Senate is to require compromise, to avoid the descent into chaos or a virtual dictatorship a unicameral legislature guarantees eventually. The direct election of Senators was a mistake that has left only the filibuster as a bulwark against the fatal consequence of attempting pure - nonrepresentative - democracy. What we are now seeing in Senatorial elections is a consequence of throwing out what the Founding Fathers believed to be critical. 

The same is just as true about packing the Supreme Court. Without the filibuster, the Democratic majority could pass legislation adding seats to the Supreme Court and then fill those seats with judges to their liking, which could be done with a Democratic president, a Democratic Congress, and no filibuster. To dilute the current 6-3 bench,  let us say they up it from nine to thirteen to secure a 7-6 majority. 

Theoretically, the Democratic party could then attempt to remain in office permanently by admitting Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, and other entities "guaranteed" to vote Democrat, to full Statehood.  

Inevitably, corruption would set in as it as always historically done and the minority party would be elected to throw the rascals out, assuming that free and fair elections were still possible. If they weren't,  the country would devolve into revolution and chaos. 

If the minority party returned to power, the first thing to do would be to add seats to the already bloated Supreme Court, to ensure its agenda would not be constrained. 

And the United States of America would join the ranks of the other New World banana republics. 

So be careful what you clamor for because obtaining a short-sighted political advantage could destroy the country. 

antler1 said
How does everybody think the new political climate will affect the collectible Winchester market? I felt the recent Poulin auction seemed soft on many average grade  Winchesters.
  

How bad?

Examples?

antler1 said
How does everybody think the new political climate will affect the collectible Winchester market? I felt the recent Poulin auction seemed soft on many average grade  Winchesters.
  

Is that more so than lately, Pat? Seems that section has been soft for awhile. If it gets any softer I'll just keep the few I have for sale. No desire to work hard to give them away. The new gun market will be very strong if history is any indication. 

Mike

One can't help but get political when talking about this very important issue. Too many times over the years, the non firearms groups of people argue about the twisted facts and turn things around just to go against the ones who enjoy the several different aspects of the hobbies whether it's, Collecting, Hunting, or shooting, amongst the few that come to mind.

I'd rather have it and not need it, than the other way! As were all familiar with it. There's a reason that I don't mingle with a lot of non firearm people! Something about being like minded or not. IMO!

Tony

I'm sure with all the like-minded people around here - including all the like-minded old guys, there's a lot of agreement.  I was going to say our hobby area is under threat again.  But that would be inaccurate.  Our hobby area has been under threat since 1968 (and before).  We have just gone through a phase of decreased threat, but the tide has turned,and the threat is now substantially escalated.

Getting back to collecting, how will this threat be of impact?  Will interest in the, "assault" style weapons decrease and more will gravitate to old Winchesters (and maybe a few Marlins)? Many collectors already prefer pre-1899 rifles, and part of the reason is their legal antique status.  Will those firearms become even in greater demand?

I vaguely recall up in Canada a few years ago, there was an emphasis on doing something about any firearm that held more than ten rounds.  I don't know how much of this was implemented but there was a push for it - which would have changed the status of Henry rifles, various tubular magazine .22's and many full magazine lever action rifles.  Under such a scenario, all Model 1886's and Model 1894's would be safe, but the full magazine 1873's and 1892's would be at risk.  

Another avenue of threat is what Chris mentioned - in Australia - a limit on how many firearms can be owned.

There's much brewing in the minds of those that want to make substantial changes in private firearms ownership.  As was mentioned above, the number of legislators who don't know the difference between a shotgun and rifle is probably not a small number.  And, that number is going to change substantially come early January.

Following her election as Governor of Minnesota, Governor-elect Amy Klobuchar affirmed during a press conference on November 4, 2026, that passing a state gun safety bill is a top priority for her administration. [1, 2]

Here in Pa., we had a 2 seat Republican majority in the senate, whereas the house majority is Democrat, as is our Governor.  The house passed four gun bills over the last few months but our two seat senate majority blocked these.    No more. 

Universal gun registration has already passed the House. It would end private sales in Pennsylvania.

Red Flag Gun Confiscation failed in the House by a single vote, 101 to 102. Democrats pushed it hard, and they'll be back.

An assault weapons ban is written and waiting in the House and the Senate. It would ban commonly owned rifles (these people don't know the difference between an AR-15, and a Remington 742, or a Winchester model 50 semi auto shotgun for that matter).

A mandatory gun lockup cleared the House Judiciary Committee this June.

I don't think they will stop at these. 

As was discussed with Texas and Minnesota, our two large population centers, Pittsburgh on the Western side, and Philadelphia on the Eastern side of the state made this happen.

Mike

steve004 said
Bert -
This is reportedly a .50-95 shot cartridge with a plastic cap - are you familiar with these?

No I am not.  The only 50-95 Cartridges I am familair with are the two types WRACo manufactured; one for the Modele 1876 lever-action with the cardboard bullet shaped capsule; and two the type for the Single Shot rifle (the full box that I hav in my collection) with the cardboard cap.

Bert

Thanks again for your thoughts.  Advertising gimmickry is a likely explanation here, and certainly other firearms manufacturers were not beyond the same thing.  

George Fink never provided me his chamber cast dimensions and in hindsight, I wish I would have pressed him on that.  Given my .50-110 cartridge just chambers, I sort of view that as my chamber cast.  If that cartridge fits, it wouldn't be possible for a chamber cast to end up with the dimensions of a .50-95 case.  On this point, I have been pondering what happens when a .50-95 case looks like after being fired in a .50-110 chamber.  I doubt anyone with a .50-110 model 1886 wants to try it. I would think the dimensions would change some, as the.50-95 isn't exactly just a short .50-110.

Presently, Redding Auctions has a Camp 50 up for auction.  I've seen about a half dozen Camp 50's for sale now and the Redding gun looks different than all the rest.  That is, it actually shows use!  All of the Camp 50's I've seen are in darn nice condition. I suspect this is because they didn't see much action.  The vision of their ad writers didn't quite make it:

"The arm which will be found in every up-to-date camp, and used by those ever on the alert for the latest development in firearms."  

I will also note that given the Camp 50 was introduced in about 1912, that's pretty late to purport that the .50-95 (or .50-110) represented a "latest development."

https://reddingauction.com/item/174-rare-standard-arms-mfg-co-camp-model-50-cal-ball-or-shot-pump-action-shotgun/

Given this gun shows use, I would love to know two things:  what he used for ammunition AND what he shot with it.  

steve004 said
Tony -
Thanks for your thoughts on the topic.
There's several aspects of the Camp 50 that don't add up.  One comment I'll make is the factory advertisement states, "Gun is carefully tested and targeted with both shot and ball cartridges before leaving the factory."  "Targeted"?  There's no sights on the gun.  There's a shotgun bead front sight.  Nothing but a large shallow groove in the receiver for a rear sight.  Just how is that, "carefully targeted"?  
They also state, "Great penetration and shocking power with extreme accuracy and light recoil."  "Extreme accuracy" with a .50 caliber rifle bullet running down a smoothbore barrel?  And, "light recoil" - it weighs 6 and 1/2 pounds.  A .50-95 in gun that light is not going to have light-recoil bragging rights.  And, "shoots shot cartridge or single ball cartridge equally well" - apparently proven by the testing that occurred before the gun left the factory.  I'd love to see those targets!
  

Steve,

Let me play devils advocate as you know I like to or tend to do! In 1914, Standard Arms made the "Camp 50", and I'm thinking you're advertising, that you posted, is from that Era. The phrase "Targeted", most certainly have been an advertising scheme or gimmick that many choose to do in that field. IMO!

"Extreme Accuracy", maybe more advertising gimmickry! You know that I can be skeptical, from many of life's past experiences!

Thoughts;

I am only assuming that the versatility of more than one cartridge works in the "Camp 50", as the 50-95, the 50-110,(shot and bulleted), and the 50-70 (SHOT ONLY), and NOT, the the 50-70 bullet cased cartridge, as so many thought previously in years past!

I think it might be time for you to chamber cast you're "Camp 50", and see where you land with that information, if you don't have, George Fink's results and information as for measurements, etc....and Data! 

Tony