Winchester Collector - Forum: General Discussions & Questions

Bert H. on Researcher seeking info and access to Hawaiian Winchester 1873's

Sat, 29 Aug 2026 16:58:43 +0000

I am certainly willing to collaborate with anyone (Michael, Bob, and anyone else) that is willing to help parse through all of those digital photos and create a database of Winchester serial numbers and associated calibers. I have a partial listing (that I created many years ago) that has two different batches of 45-70 caliber Single Shot (high-wall) Muskets that are known to have been in the CHG inventory. It would be great if we collectively can create a composite list of all the Winchesters listed in the Hawaiian CHG inventory records.

This is a partial list that I have in my research records;

Winchester Single Shot Hawaiian Guard 45-70 caliber Muskets shipped on 5/1/1888 to Order # 6559 (40 total)

Serial #

24395
24501
24502
24506
24507
24508
24509
24510
24512
24513
24515
24516
24517
24518
24520
24522
24523
24525
24526
24528
24530
24531
24534
24535
24537
24538
24539
24540
24541
24543
24547
24549
24550
24552
24554
24555
24556
24557
24559
24560

Bert

steve004 on Model 1876 - 40-60 Round Barrel

Sat, 29 Aug 2026 14:17:00 +0000

My above post - talking about M1886's and smoothbores - brought memories back from 40+ years ago - of a rifle I'd love to have back. The rifle was both improbable and a mystery. What didn't help was that it was a later production M1886 and was beyond the letterable range. It an extralightweight, takedown, half magazine, pistol grip semi-deluxe, SGB with the Lyman no. 21 and surely that was special order and original as there was no rear sight seat. It was in .45-70 and was a smoothbore. It was in very very high condition. The downside of course was no letter to verify it and it was not marked smoothbore in any way. A .451 jacketed .45 acp bullet would not fit into the muzzle - so it definitely had not been bored out to a smoothbore. The only possibility would be a liner had been installed.

But who would have ordered a .45-70 smoothbore with the Long Lyman receiver sight and no provision for a rear sight? I can't recall the front sight very well but I believe it was standard. And even if the rifle hadn't been ordered this way, who would have taken a high condition M1886 and have it relined to a smoothbore? It was quite the oddity but the lack of a museum letter impacted the value dramatically. I traded it off, but like many, I wish I had it back. And of course, they mystery was never solved.

1873man on Researcher seeking info and access to Hawaiian Winchester 1873's

Sat, 29 Aug 2026 14:16:16 +0000

I got through the three books and found guns that must of been turned back in and reissued. I had many guns show up multiple times with a few new ones showing up. I also found a hand full called Rebel Carbine that could be Winchesters from the serial were in the range of other Winchester.

Bob

TXGunNut on Gun humour!

Sat, 29 Aug 2026 13:59:58 +0000

When I was a PPC shooter we used carbide lamps to smoke our sights and our revolvers needed cleaning after every match or practice session. The carbide residue was a smelly light-colored powder. It was said that the novice shooters wore Hoppes #9 for cologne and the hardcore guys snorted carbide powder.

Mike

steve004 on Model 1876 - 40-60 Round Barrel

Sat, 29 Aug 2026 12:46:20 +0000

Chuck said
All the Colt Lightnings chamber a Winchester cartridge. But may be called something else. My 45-85 uses the (45-70) Win 45-85 no WCF. The Win 45-85 WCF is the same length as the Win 45-90.

This general topic has fascinated me since I bought Flayderman's book as a teenager. It's taking a long to understand it given the different cartridge designations (and sometimes the same designations.

Chuck's comment that the Colt Lightnings chambering a Winchester cartridge reminds me of the Whitney-Kennedy (the large caliber versions) also chambered Winchester cartridges, but all from the Model 1876 chamberings. So of course, the .40-60 in the Whitney-Kennedy was the .40-60 WCF.

The .45 calibers get more interesting. One are of confusion, some .45-90 WCF cartridges came with an 85 grain powder load and were headstamped .45-85 WCF.

The Bullard rifle was chambered in both the .45-70 and the .45-85. These rifles used the same cartridge (dimensionally) but the difference between the two rifles was how the barrel was stamped and probably the rate of twist (given the .45 Govt. used a 405 grain bullet and the .45-85 used a 285 grain bullet).

The above reminds me of discussions we have had of the .50-100-450, .50-105, 50-110 chamberings in the Winchester '86. These rifles would all fire the same cartridge but rate of twist differed, matched to different bullet weights. How these rifles were stamped as to the chambering has sometimes added to confusion.

On the topic of the .50 Model 1886, here's a question I can't resolve. If I recall correctly, there are 15 .50 caliber smoothbores listed in the factory ledger. Most are listed as .50 Express smoothbore. There is one .50-100-450 smoothbore listed. Now, that can't have a different rate of twist or have been made up for a specific grain cartridge. H could it have been different in any way? What could have prompted them to make up this rifle?

On this topic, I would be fascinated to know the story behind every '86 smoothbore that was ordered. Who ordered it and what they used it for? Sadly, I'll wager not one story has survived.

twobit on Researcher seeking info and access to Hawaiian Winchester 1873's

Sat, 29 Aug 2026 12:17:12 +0000

Bert H. said
I spent a fair amount of time looking at dozens of the picture files of the records and downloaded more than 20 of the picture files. Based On what I have seen thus far, the Hawaiian Civil Home Guard purchased many hundreds of Models 1873, 1876, Hotchkiss, Single Shot, 1886, and 1892 rifles, muskets, and carbines. I will eventually create an Excel spreadsheet with each of the models, calibers, and the associated serial numbers where shown.
Bert

I can do the 1892's. But it will be in a week or so after a quick trip to the Dolomite mountains in Italy!

Michael

Rick C on Gun humour!

Sat, 29 Aug 2026 11:53:08 +0000

Chris D on Researcher seeking info and access to Hawaiian Winchester 1873's

Sat, 29 Aug 2026 10:14:15 +0000

Bert H. said
I spent a fair amount of time looking at dozens of the picture files of the records and downloaded more than 20 of the picture files. Based On what I have seen thus far, the Hawaiian Civil Home Guard purchased many hundreds of Models 1873, 1876, Hotchkiss, Single Shot, 1886, and 1892 rifles, muskets, and carbines. I will eventually create an Excel spreadsheet with each of the models, calibers, and the associated serial numbers where shown.
Bert

Fantastic! I am glad you blokes found it useful! The credit belongs to the person that uploaded all of the pictures! Invaluable information for us collectors

Bert H. on Researcher seeking info and access to Hawaiian Winchester 1873's

Sat, 29 Aug 2026 05:42:48 +0000

I spent a fair amount of time looking at dozens of the picture files of the records and downloaded more than 20 of the picture files. Based On what I have seen thus far, the Hawaiian Civil Home Guard purchased many hundreds of Models 1873, 1876, Hotchkiss, Single Shot, 1886, and 1892 rifles, muskets, and carbines. I will eventually create an Excel spreadsheet with each of the models, calibers, and the associated serial numbers where shown.

Bert

1873man on Researcher seeking info and access to Hawaiian Winchester 1873's

Sat, 29 Aug 2026 02:29:56 +0000

I got though the link from Chris and got 70 73's serial numbers of which I had 5 of them. One was the 372665 that was the subject of the guy that made the Reddit post in the link that Tony posted but I got in once to see the pictures but got beat back with popups and ad's if I turned off my Ad Blocker.

Bob

Maverick on Model 1876 - 40-60 Round Barrel

Sat, 29 Aug 2026 00:23:17 +0000

Chuck said

Bill Hockett said
I added this serial number to the 1876 survey. It is smack dab in the middle of a bunch of round barrel .40-60 rifles. The .40-60 WCF was introduced in 1884 so Winchester was marketing it against the Marlin Model 1881 rifle in .40-60 Marlin (.40-65 WCF).

40-60 Marlin is probably what the Colt lightning used?

The .40-60 Colt & .40-60 Marlin are the same dimensionally as the .40-65 Winchester (Introduced by WRACo 1884). They are not the same as the .40-60 Winchester (Introduced by WRACo 1887).

For the sake of comparison, here is a .40-60 WCF on the left next to a .40-60 Marlin.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Chuck on Model 1876 - 40-60 Round Barrel

Sat, 29 Aug 2026 00:00:59 +0000

All the Colt Lightnings chamber a Winchester cartridge. But may be called something else. My 45-85 uses the (45-70) Win 45-85 no WCF. The Win 45-85 WCF is the same length as the Win 45-90.

Maverick on Jim Foral's article on the 1895 Madison Square Garden Sportsman's Exposition

Fri, 28 Aug 2026 23:51:43 +0000

That is a wonderful article. I was aware of Winchester being at the exposition. I do wonder where his sources for the article came from particularly his source for all the photographs? The photo of the Winchester display is different than the one I'm used to seeing. Its from the same angle but normally the one I've seen in the past there are a couple of men standing behind the display. I've also never seen the other photos of the BGI tool and UMC ammo displays.

Thanks for sharing the article.

Sincerely,

Maverick

steve004 on Model 1876 - 40-60 Round Barrel

Fri, 28 Aug 2026 21:13:52 +0000

Chuck said

Bill Hockett said
I added this serial number to the 1876 survey. It is smack dab in the middle of a bunch of round barrel .40-60 rifles. The .40-60 WCF was introduced in 1884 so Winchester was marketing it against the Marlin Model 1881 rifle in .40-60 Marlin (.40-65 WCF).

40-60 Marlin is probably what the Colt lightning used?

Yes. I have a .40-60-260 Colt Express rifle and it is the same round as the .40-60 Marlin and the .40-65 Winchester. And by the way, it is the same round as the .40-70 Bullard. The .40-60 WCF wasn't used in many other rifles from different manufacturers. The Whitney-Kennedy is one example I can think of.