The box label is very forthcoming, "To be used in Winchester Model 1886 Rifles chambered for the .45-90 Cartridge, and marked on barrel 45-90 W.C.F." The bullet is 350 grains of Solid Lead with a Flat Point.

I do believe there have been a rare few rifles that had their respective barrels marked wit the .45-85 W.C.F. caliber stamping. The rate of twist no doubt would be the same as the 45-90 W.C.F. barrels.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Bert H. said

1873man said
I started to cross check the serials of the Winchester 44's to my survey to see if I get a hit on one I have info on. I had serial 28311 and its a rifle with a extra heavy 30" barrel. That does not sound like a gun you would issue unless you didn't have any ammo and used it to beat the enemy.  I have seen in the list low serial numbers that would fall into the first model 73's that say they are 38 and 32 calibers. I believe all the low serial number Winchesters in 44 are 92's
Bob
  

Bob,
I did some checking, and all of the low serial numbered 44's on the page you posted are indeed Model 1892 44 Caliber Carbines, and they are all on the same order number #7619.
Do you have copies of any additional pages with serial numbers and calibers?
Bert
  

Hey Bert

I'm pretty curious how you found this order number and are able to make these connections. I've been trying to find proof of the order for the rebel arms in 1894, but am having a hard time locating any definitive records. Sorry if this is a newbie question, but I have information like the city that the order was placed in, around what time of year, and the number of arms, just trying to get a receipt or some kind of proof of purchase. Let me know if you could point me in the right direction!

1873man said
I got screen shots of the 2nd link from the Reddit post of the guns which includes many 86's in 45-75. I can go through that list and compile a list of all the guns. I have all the 73"s from the 1st link of Google photos. I found an explanation for the Rebel Carbine with this note.
Bob

Hey, this is really awesome! Id be really excited to try and build out a sheet of all the known rebel arms that were redistributed to the NGH or the CGH specifically after 1895. 

It sounds like we were both fishing in the same pool at the same time.  I was also lucky enough to snag one of the Bavarian Winchester Carbines and then also ended up with the one my buddy bought and then subsequently couldn't afford.  He had plenty of money, he just couldn't afford to lose his wife 😉

Mine are both in the 128,xxxx range, is yours in that same ballpark?  I sure wish we had those CMP prices again.....

Best Regards,

Jon

Welcome to WACA!  I have made many, many purchases through the CMP and your WACA membership card works exactly like your Garand Collectors Association card/letter.  You simply upload a copy of it with your purchase application just like you did with the GCA card/letter.  Everything else is the same.

I am also a member of both organizations (GCA and WACA).  We are looking forward to your participation in the Winchester forum here, especially the Winchester Military section.  We are all anxiously awaiting the CMP release of the M14's and Riot/Trench guns next year.

Best Regards,

Pretty new member of WACA and am pleased to learn that WACA is associated with the CMP in that purchases for surplus Garands etc can be done with WACA membership. I am wondering if anyone has experience using that benefit. I have been a member of the Garand Collectors Association for more than 20 years so am very familiar with how CMP sales works. GCA membership satisfied one of the requirements to purchase from CMP. What’s your experience using WACA membership?

Honest Jon

https://bid.poulinauctions.com/WINCHESTER-3RD-MODEL-1873-LEVER-ACTION-SRC_i59096556

Bob

Jim F in CT said

Bert H. said

Jim F in CT said
Some interesting facts I’ve learned . . . .
I was once invited to magazine writer, Ken Waters’ home in New Canaan, Ct., to discuss, or “hash over” some of his . . . .and my own . . . .findings about the Hornet cartridge.
I had found an excellent load for my 1939-era, M70, but Ken had found accuracy to be extremely “illusive” in his.
We both agreed that the Hercules #2400 powder was developed for use in the Hornet, but we had both found it to be “not quite right” in our loadings.
My most success was with the now unavailable Winchester #680 powder (now called #1680 by Accurate) . . . and Ken seemed to dislike the Hornet “in general”.
And just as an “FYI” . . .my rifle has a .223” groove diameter. (Just for giggles, I tried some “normal” .224” and actually noticed my groups enlarged . . .slightly!)
Anyhoo . . .This Hornet cartridge makes for some extremely cost-effective shooting!
  

I have been shooting (and reloading) the 22 Hornet for nearly 60-years now.  My dad got me started shooting an old converted Winchester Single Shot rifle that was rebarreled & chambered for 22 Hornet in the summer of 1966.  Because he was a dedicated reloader, we reloaded everything possible.  At that time, he was using 2400, but we also tried IMR 4227 as well.  As I gained my own experience (and acquired different rifles), I discovered that a load that will shoot well in one rifle very seldom ever shoots well in a different rifle... the 22 Hornet is a finicky cartridge, and it needs to be adjusted (tweaked) to each rifle. 
Having said that, in recent times, Hodgdon's Lil'Gun powder has been my "go to" for reloading the 22 Hornet and the 22 K-Hornet.  What I have discovered is that an absolute case full (light compression) is what works best.  I have also discovered that different case types (Remington, Winchester, Hornady, etc.) have different internal case capacities, and that mixing brass types should be avoided at all costs if you are seeking best accuracy.  Because the case types are different in their internal volume, it requires that a different amount powder be used to achieve best accuracy, and it can be as much as a 1.0 grain difference.  To give you an example, I load W-W Super cases with 12.5 grains of Lil'gun under a 40-gr V-Max, but if I am loading R-P cases, I use 13.0 grains of Lil'Gun with the same bullet, and those two loads are for the same rifle.  If I switch rifles, or bullet weights, I again have two different loads for it using the different brass types.
Because I have four different Hornet rifles, I have labeled all of my dozens of ammo boxes and brass for each rifle.  I also use an Excel spreadsheet to keep track of which loads shoot best in each rifle, and what brass type I am using for each rifle and load. Currently, I have 5,000+ Hornet cases, most of which is R-P but I now have a substantial amount of W-W Super.  Because I have separate brass for each rifle, I neck size only when reloading it, and that helps extend the case life.
So in summary, Yes the 22 Hornet cartridge can be challenging to find a load that shoots lights out, but with some patience and experimenting, superbly accurate loads can be achieved for your rifle.
Bert - a.k.a. Mr. Hornet!
  

AMEN! Mr. Hornet . . .I agree TOTALY! . . . .
Took me quite awhile to come around to my favorite load!
I once had the Winch. M43 in Hornet, but it went down the road a while ago . . . .
Never got it to shoot as well as my old M70, so-o-o . . . .
  

I have a Model 43 rifle that shoots lights out with Factory Remington (R22HN2) 45 grain Hollow Point ammo.  I can routinely shoot .75" 5-shot groups with that ammo.  It took a lot of effort to find a load of my own making that shoots as well. This was the most finicky of my Hornet rifles to find an accurate load!

My Model 54 22 Hornet really likes the 13.0 grains of Lil'Gun and the Hornady 40-gr V-Max bullet. 

My Model 70 (22 K-Hornet) shoots best with 14.5 grains of Lil'Gun with the 40-gr V-Max.  When shooting it with a 35-gr V-Max, 15.5 grains is the load.

My Single Shot K-Hornet (converted Winder Musket) prefers 13.8 grains of Lil'Gun with the 40-gr V-Max, and 14.5 grains with the 35-gr V-Max.

I really like reloading for the Hornet, but it does take some careful planning before I get started for each session!  I also have separate reloading dies for each rifle.

Bert

Chuck said

steve004 said

Chuck said
All the Colt Lightnings chamber a Winchester cartridge. But may be called something else.   My 45-85 uses the (45-70) Win 45-85 no WCF.  The Win 45-85 WCF is the same length as the Win 45-90. 
  

Just to add to the mix, I recall there were five M1886's made in .45-85.
  

But I bet they were actually 45-85 WCF which are the same length as the 45-90 WCF.  WRACO brass that just says 45-85 (missing the WCF) are the same length as a 45-70.  That is the length Colt, Marlin and Ballard used.  These cartridges are listed in the Winchester catalogs as 2.1".
  

Chuck - I'll bet you are correct on this.  A question would be if the rate of twist in these rifles was different from the .45-90. 

Bert H. said

Jim F in CT said
Some interesting facts I’ve learned . . . .
I was once invited to magazine writer, Ken Waters’ home in New Canaan, Ct., to discuss, or “hash over” some of his . . . .and my own . . . .findings about the Hornet cartridge.
I had found an excellent load for my 1939-era, M70, but Ken had found accuracy to be extremely “illusive” in his.
We both agreed that the Hercules #2400 powder was developed for use in the Hornet, but we had both found it to be “not quite right” in our loadings.
My most success was with the now unavailable Winchester #680 powder (now called #1680 by Accurate) . . . and Ken seemed to dislike the Hornet “in general”.
And just as an “FYI” . . .my rifle has a .223” groove diameter. (Just for giggles, I tried some “normal” .224” and actually noticed my groups enlarged . . .slightly!)
Anyhoo . . .This Hornet cartridge makes for some extremely cost-effective shooting!
  

I have been shooting (and reloading) the 22 Hornet for nearly 60-years now.  My dad got me started shooting an old converted Winchester Single Shot rifle that was rebarreled & chambered for 22 Hornet in the summer of 1966.  Because he was a dedicated reloader, we reloaded everything possible.  At that time, he was using 2400, but we also tried IMR 4227 as well.  As I gained my own experience (and acquired different rifles), I discovered that a load that will shoot well in one rifle very seldom ever shoots well in a different rifle... the 22 Hornet is a finicky cartridge, and it needs to be adjusted (tweaked) to each rifle. 
Having said that, in recent times, Hodgdon's Lil'Gun powder has been my "go to" for reloading the 22 Hornet and the 22 K-Hornet.  What I have discovered is that an absolute case full (light compression) is what works best.  I have also discovered that different case types (Remington, Winchester, Hornady, etc.) have different internal case capacities, and that mixing brass types should be avoided at all costs if you are seeking best accuracy.  Because the case types are different in their internal volume, it requires that a different amount powder be used to achieve best accuracy, and it can be as much as a 1.0 grain difference.  To give you an example, I load W-W Super cases with 12.5 grains of Lil'gun under a 40-gr V-Max, but if I am loading R-P cases, I use 13.0 grains of Lil'Gun with the same bullet, and those two loads are for the same rifle.  If I switch rifles, or bullet weights, I again have two different loads for it using the different brass types.
Because I have four different Hornet rifles, I have labeled all of my dozens of ammo boxes and brass for each rifle.  I also use an Excel spreadsheet to keep track of which loads shoot best in each rifle, and what brass type I am using for each rifle and load. Currently, I have 5,000+ Hornet cases, most of which is R-P but I now have a substantial amount of W-W Super.  Because I have separate brass for each rifle, I neck size only when reloading it, and that helps extend the case life.
So in summary, Yes the 22 Hornet cartridge can be challenging to find a load that shoots lights out, but with some patience and experimenting, superbly accurate loads can be achieved for your rifle.
Bert - a.k.a. Mr. Hornet!
  

AMEN! Mr. Hornet . . .I agree TOTALY! . . . .

Took me quite awhile to come around to my favorite load!

I once had the Winch. M43 in Hornet, but it went down the road a while ago . . . .

Never got it to shoot as well as my old M70, so-o-o . . . .

Jim F in CT said
Some interesting facts I’ve learned . . . .
I was once invited to magazine writer, Ken Waters’ home in New Canaan, Ct., to discuss, or “hash over” some of his . . . .and my own . . . .findings about the Hornet cartridge.
I had found an excellent load for my 1939-era, M70, but Ken had found accuracy to be extremely “illusive” in his.
We both agreed that the Hercules #2400 powder was developed for use in the Hornet, but we had both found it to be “not quite right” in our loadings.
My most success was with the now unavailable Winchester #680 powder (now called #1680 by Accurate) . . . and Ken seemed to dislike the Hornet “in general”.
And just as an “FYI” . . .my rifle has a .223” groove diameter. (Just for giggles, I tried some “normal” .224” and actually noticed my groups enlarged . . .slightly!)
Anyhoo . . .This Hornet cartridge makes for some extremely cost-effective shooting!
  

I have been shooting (and reloading) the 22 Hornet for nearly 60-years now.  My dad got me started shooting an old converted Winchester Single Shot rifle that was rebarreled & chambered for 22 Hornet in the summer of 1966.  Because he was a dedicated reloader, we reloaded everything possible.  At that time, he was using 2400, but we also tried IMR 4227 as well.  As I gained my own experience (and acquired different rifles), I discovered that a load that will shoot well in one rifle very seldom ever shoots well in a different rifle... the 22 Hornet is a finicky cartridge, and it needs to be adjusted (tweaked) to each rifle. 

Having said that, in recent times, Hodgdon's Lil'Gun powder has been my "go to" for reloading the 22 Hornet and the 22 K-Hornet.  What I have discovered is that an absolute case full (light compression) is what works best.  I have also discovered that different case types (Remington, Winchester, Hornady, etc.) have different internal case capacities, and that mixing brass types should be avoided at all costs if you are seeking best accuracy.  Because the case types are different in their internal volume, it requires that a different amount powder be used to achieve best accuracy, and it can be as much as a 1.0 grain difference.  To give you an example, I load W-W Super cases with 12.5 grains of Lil'gun under a 40-gr V-Max, but if I am loading R-P cases, I use 13.0 grains of Lil'Gun with the same bullet, and those two loads are for the same rifle.  If I switch rifles, or bullet weights, I again have two different loads for it using the different brass types.

Because I have four different Hornet rifles, I have labeled all of my dozens of ammo boxes and brass for each rifle.  I also use an Excel spreadsheet to keep track of which loads shoot best in each rifle, and what brass type I am using for each rifle and load. Currently, I have 5,000+ Hornet cases, most of which is R-P but I now have a substantial amount of W-W Super.  Because I have separate brass for each rifle, I neck size only when reloading it, and that helps extend the case life.

So in summary, Yes the 22 Hornet cartridge can be challenging to find a load that shoots lights out, but with some patience and experimenting, superbly accurate loads can be achieved for your rifle.

Bert - a.k.a. Mr. Hornet!