steve004 said
Bert -
This is reportedly a .50-95 shot cartridge with a plastic cap - are you familiar with these?

No I am not.  The only 50-95 Cartridges I am familair with are the two types WRACo manufactured; one for the Modele 1876 lever-action with the cardboard bullet shaped capsule; and two the type for the Single Shot rifle (the full box that I hav in my collection) with the cardboard cap.

Bert

Thanks again for your thoughts.  Advertising gimmickry is a likely explanation here, and certainly other firearms manufacturers were not beyond the same thing.  

George Fink never provided me his chamber cast dimensions and in hindsight, I wish I would have pressed him on that.  Given my .50-110 cartridge just chambers, I sort of view that as my chamber cast.  If that cartridge fits, it wouldn't be possible for a chamber cast to end up with the dimensions of a .50-95 case.  On this point, I have been pondering what happens when a .50-95 case looks like after being fired in a .50-110 chamber.  I doubt anyone with a .50-110 model 1886 wants to try it. I would think the dimensions would change some, as the.50-95 isn't exactly just a short .50-110.

Presently, Redding Auctions has a Camp 50 up for auction.  I've seen about a half dozen Camp 50's for sale now and the Redding gun looks different than all the rest.  That is, it actually shows use!  All of the Camp 50's I've seen are in darn nice condition. I suspect this is because they didn't see much action.  The vision of their ad writers didn't quite make it:

"The arm which will be found in every up-to-date camp, and used by those ever on the alert for the latest development in firearms."  

I will also note that given the Camp 50 was introduced in about 1912, that's pretty late to purport that the .50-95 (or .50-110) represented a "latest development."

https://reddingauction.com/item/174-rare-standard-arms-mfg-co-camp-model-50-cal-ball-or-shot-pump-action-shotgun/

Given this gun shows use, I would love to know two things:  what he used for ammunition AND what he shot with it.  

steve004 said
Tony -
Thanks for your thoughts on the topic.
There's several aspects of the Camp 50 that don't add up.  One comment I'll make is the factory advertisement states, "Gun is carefully tested and targeted with both shot and ball cartridges before leaving the factory."  "Targeted"?  There's no sights on the gun.  There's a shotgun bead front sight.  Nothing but a large shallow groove in the receiver for a rear sight.  Just how is that, "carefully targeted"?  
They also state, "Great penetration and shocking power with extreme accuracy and light recoil."  "Extreme accuracy" with a .50 caliber rifle bullet running down a smoothbore barrel?  And, "light recoil" - it weighs 6 and 1/2 pounds.  A .50-95 in gun that light is not going to have light-recoil bragging rights.  And, "shoots shot cartridge or single ball cartridge equally well" - apparently proven by the testing that occurred before the gun left the factory.  I'd love to see those targets!
  

Steve,

Let me play devils advocate as you know I like to or tend to do! In 1914, Standard Arms made the "Camp 50", and I'm thinking you're advertising, that you posted, is from that Era. The phrase "Targeted", most certainly have been an advertising scheme or gimmick that many choose to do in that field. IMO!

"Extreme Accuracy", maybe more advertising gimmickry! You know that I can be skeptical, from many of life's past experiences!

Thoughts;

I am only assuming that the versatility of more than one cartridge works in the "Camp 50", as the 50-95, the 50-110,(shot and bulleted), and the 50-70 (SHOT ONLY), and NOT, the the 50-70 bullet cased cartridge, as so many thought previously in years past!

I think it might be time for you to chamber cast you're "Camp 50", and see where you land with that information, if you don't have, George Fink's results and information as for measurements, etc....and Data! 

Tony

This is reportedly a .50-95 shot cartridge with a plastic cap - are you familiar with these?

Anthony #5411 said
Steve,
This lack of discovery has been ongoing for some time now, as you and I have discussed this, and like Bert said, the "ball cartridge", which to many of us is interpreted as the standard bullet round, to many of us and even yourself, but the Standard Arms, "Camp 50", as it's known, is a Smooth Bore, shotgun type Rifle! As you're well aware of! 
To this date, no known marked cartridges, or boxes of known or marked ammunition have been found! Again as you're well aware of! Below is a post from the IAA Forum where information has been sought for decades on this amazing firearm.
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/50-caliber-shot-shell/30061
At this point in time after several well known world renowned cartridge collectors, and arms collectors, have failed to find or come up with a stamped or marked cartridge, or even a box that is dedicated to the "Camp 50", is it possible those three large corporations, Winchester Remington-UM C and Peters, of well known ammunition suppliers, simply decided that the ammunition produced and manufactured at the time, as so was stated to be used interchangeably and without designation of this particular firearm, that the Standard Arms Company produced in a relatively small amount compared to the larger number of manufactured arms of the day? 
I do somehow remember a DuPont, of the well known family of powder back in the day having interest in this. As a matter of fact, one is named so in the first post in the IAA thread I posted above. I'm thinking maybe it was assumed a previous unmarked cartridge, from these three major manufactures, were to be used as a versatile firearm, and never having ammunition specifically marked or designated to these firearms.
A very interesting and ongoing dilemma. Thanks for posting.
Tony
  

Tony -

I have been searching for the identity of the Camp 50 cartridge for over 30 years. Over the years I've been in contact with some Standard Arms collectors and they total very few.  Many years ago I was in conversations with a Standard Arms collector named George Fink.  He was heavily researching Standard Arms and writing a book.  He passed away before he finished it. We discussed the Camp 50 and he had one of course.  I asked if he had taken a chamber cast of his and he said he had and his response was, "it posed more questions than it answered."

I have not chamber casted my "rifle/shotgun" but a curious thing I found is that the group of cartridges in the photo below will all fully chamber - they are .50/70 shot, .50/95 shot, .50/110 shot and .50/110 bulleted.  

The rim on the .50/70 is too wide to clear the action opening but the others will.  For many years a specially made .50/70 was thought to be the Camp 50 chambering but I think the fact that the rim won't clear the action settles that.  But say the Camp 50 was chambered for the .50/95, why would a .50/110 fit the chamber?  

Several years ago I proposed switching the paradigm around and rather than pose the question what cartridge was the Camp 50 chambered for, switch it to, what cartridges wasn't it chambering for?  A 12 gauge shotgun in 3.5 inch magnum, is also chambered for mini-shells, 2.75, 3 inch and everything up to 3.5 inch.

As I said, I haven't done a chamber cast on mine but given the variety of cartridges it will chamber, it has to basically just be a straight cylinder. 

Bert H. said
Steve,
My interpretation of "ball cartridge" is a standard bullet round.
Bert
  

Bert -

I was thinking about other, "round ball" loads that Winchester manufactured would be a comparison here.  For example, Winchester made a round ball load for the .44 Marbles Game Getter.  They also made round ball gallery loads for the .32-20, .38-40 and .44-40.  The .44-40 was 110 to 120 grains of .433 diameter.  

Here's a 6 minute video from Ian.  He does a fine job and I was amused at the end where he mentions the extreme rarity of the Camp 50, only exceeded by the extreme rarity of anyone who is interested in them!  I don't know if I should feel good or not about falling into that category.

Thanks for your thoughts on the topic.

There's several aspects of the Camp 50 that don't add up.  One comment I'll make is the factory advertisement states, "Gun is carefully tested and targeted with both shot and ball cartridges before leaving the factory."  "Targeted"?  There's no sights on the gun.  There's a shotgun bead front sight.  Nothing but a large shallow groove in the receiver for a rear sight.  Just how is that, "carefully targeted"?  

They also state, "Great penetration and shocking power with extreme accuracy and light recoil."  "Extreme accuracy" with a .50 caliber rifle bullet running down a smoothbore barrel?  And, "light recoil" - it weighs 6 and 1/2 pounds.  A .50-95 in gun that light is not going to have light-recoil bragging rights.  And, "shoots shot cartridge or single ball cartridge equally well" - apparently proven by the testing that occurred before the gun left the factory.  I'd love to see those targets!

This lack of discovery has been ongoing for some time now, as you and I have discussed this, and like Bert said, the "ball cartridge", which to many of us is interpreted as the standard bullet round, to many of us and even yourself, but the Standard Arms, "Camp 50", as it's known, is a Smooth Bore, shotgun type Rifle! As you're well aware of! 

To this date, no known marked cartridges, or boxes of known or marked ammunition have been found! Again as you're well aware of! Below is a post from the IAA Forum where information has been sought for decades on this amazing firearm.

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/50-caliber-shot-shell/30061

At this point in time after several well known world renowned cartridge collectors, and arms collectors, have failed to find or come up with a stamped or marked cartridge, or even a box that is dedicated to the "Camp 50", is it possible those three large corporations, Winchester Remington-UM C and Peters, of well known ammunition suppliers, simply decided that the ammunition produced and manufactured at the time, as so was stated to be used interchangeably and without designation of this particular firearm, that the Standard Arms Company produced in a relatively small amount compared to the larger number of manufactured arms of the day? 

I do somehow remember a DuPont, of the well known family of powder back in the day having interest in this. As a matter of fact, one is named so in the first post in the IAA thread I posted above. I'm thinking maybe it was assumed a previous unmarked cartridge, from these three major manufactures, were to be used as a versatile firearm, and never having ammunition specifically marked or designated to these firearms.

A very interesting and ongoing dilemma. Thanks for posting.

Tony

My interpretation of "ball cartridge" is a standard bullet round.

Bert

mrcvs said

How many of us are under 50 on this forum, or even under 60 or even 70?

I am 41. I find myself the youngest, by far, of my collecting friends. 

Here in Australia, owning firearms is not a constitutional right. It is a conditional privilege.

New South Wales has just started their buyback for a limit of 4 shooting guns per person. Collectors licence holders are exempt at this stage. 

The rest of the states here (I am in Victoria) are watching the situation closely. 

Chris

TXGunNut said
All I'll add to the political element of this thread is that we are seeing a swing that shouldn't have surprised most of us, we've seen it before. It will swing the other way. What concerns me is the demographics we see in our group and shooters as a whole. Some of us will see the day when the majority has never fired a gun and has no interest in doing so. I'm a bit cynical lately, just learned that development is a very real and immediate threat to the private range that was a big part of my retirement plans. We're becoming obsolete and antique, just like the guns we love. Shoot 'em if you got 'em!
 
Mike
  

When I read this originally, I was thinking you gmeant the forum as a lot of members collect and don’t shoot.  But at least if the majority of members collect and do not shoot, that’s still okay as the interest is still there.  And, many of our members just shoot, and don’t collect at all.