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WTB: Van Orden Model 70's and Model 70's Serial Number Range 41,000-50,000
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July 8, 2016 - 4:10 pm
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Hi Lou,

My scope is Stith-branded Kollmorgen Bear Cub on an adjustable mount. The rear sight dovetail is empty.

Here are some detail pics of the scope and mount.

 

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July 8, 2016 - 10:52 pm
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NICE!!!  That 4X Stith/Kollmorgen ‘Master’ scope in the windage/elevation adjustable Stith ‘Master Mount’ is perfectly period correct for your rifle (according to the 1952 Shooter’s Bible I just consulted).

I note that’s the Master Mount that works on pre-war M70s (or undrilled transition H&H Magnum length actions), in that it uses the receiver sight holes rather than those on the bridge.  Cool…  Those Stith Master Mounts weren’t the most elegant things design-wise (I like the looks of the B&L or Kuharsky mounts better), but they sure got the job done.  Wink

Lou

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July 8, 2016 - 11:40 pm
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Thanks Lou,

The rifle and scope show some honest use but the glass is clear and the windage/elevation functions as expected. I haven’t had it to the range yet to zero. The only drag is that someone broke off an allen wrench in the rear screw of the center scope ring (the one attached to the leaf spring). Doesn’t effect function unless I want to remove the scope one day (why would I do that?!?!).

The mount os a little Rube-Goldberg and I don’t really understand the thumb wheel (? Disk with knurled edge) that holds the spring steel leaf in place under the scope but I’ll figure it out.

Thanks again.

 

Steve

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July 8, 2016 - 11:51 pm
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Hey Steve-

My vote for the ‘Rube Goldberg’ Award of 1950’s scope mount designs has to go to the Miller Kodiak Dream Mount.

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These were intended as a ‘universal’ no-drill mount that could be adapted to most any rifle.  The only point of solid connection to the gun is via the 3/8″ dovetail in the barrel.  The angled screws on the ‘rear saddle’ are set screws intended to give windage/elevation adjustment.  No holes in the bridge…

The M43 standard grade on the WACA Spring 2016 cover has one…

Cheers

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July 8, 2016 - 11:58 pm
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Really cool to see the development of these things. My fascination with Winchester Levers started by comparing the changes in design and engineering from model to subsequent model.

I found a repro Stith Master Mount manual online for only a few bucks so I’ll probably order one just to refer to.

I did find this: (from http://www.gunsmagazine.com/1955issues/G1155.pdf)

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July 9, 2016 - 2:23 am
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Steve-

If you want I can scan the instruction manual and e-mail to you.  I have a couple of these mounts NIB.  The instructions cover four 8 1/2 x 11 pages.

Just send me a PM with an e-mail address and I’ll get it scanned and sent by the end of the weekend.

Cheers,

Lou

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July 9, 2016 - 2:30 am
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Thanks Lou. Sending you a pm. 

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July 15, 2016 - 12:55 am
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Gentlemen,

Here is the update on the Van Orden 220290.  It arrived today and looks beautiful!  I would say the metal is a good solid 98% or better.  The only marks or wear I can find on it is where the original target scope blocks and 48WH sight sat.  It definitely looks better in person than in the auction photos.

I removed the stock and the barrel channel is NOT bedded and the barrel is somewhat free-floated.  It is opened up for the Target barrel and the stock stain/finish is slopped over the edges at the top inside of the channel so it is entirely plausible it is the original stock.  The action is bedded including the first 1.75 inches of the barrel.  The same bedding material is in the forearm screw hole and there is also a lighter brown filler of some sort where the 48WH slide sat on the stock so I suspect the bedding is not original, or at least an additional filler has been added to the screw hole and sight notch.

The barrel date is 1950 and the bolt serial number matches.  I am certainly not a Model 70 expert (not even close) so I will defer to your opinions.  I am a little bothered by the bolt handle.  The barrel and action are the standard satin and matte model 70 finish but the bolt handle is a gloss blue.  Is that correct or has it been refinished?  The stock is a little glossier than I would think was the norm so I suspect an overcoat of some sort has been applied. 

Overall I am VERY pleased with it, a solid rifle in very nice condition. I will post some pictures as soon as I can.

 

Regards,

PS. I missed out on the 48WH on eBay as I was driving back from Cody and didn’t see that I had been outbid at the last moment – Dang!  So, I am still looking for a correct vintage Lyman 48WH if someone runs across one somewhere.  Thanks!

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July 15, 2016 - 1:35 am
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JWA-

Glad to hear it.  My guess is that the action was bedded by a previous owner  Mine is not bedded, but like yours the barrel channel is slightly opened up (more than the typical ’50s M70 Target), which I’ve wondered about as far as whether it was done by the factory, the shop, or the owner.  Your description sounds like your barrel channel may have been done at the factory.

My observation is that M70 bolt handles often differ from the receiver somewhat it terms of how heavily they were bead blasted (sometimes they are relatively shiny compared to the receiver).  But if bright polished it would have been redone.

I will check about receiver sights.  I know I have one of these late 48WH sights NIB that I’ll probably keep, but I might have another one.  M70 target rifle sights are one thing I tend to hoard to the point that I can’t remember anymore what I’ve got.

Hope it’s still a tack driver!

Lou

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July 15, 2016 - 2:41 am
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Give it up Louis. Mr. JWA has done a lot for us collectors and deserves a nice M48WH sight. If I had a spare I would give it to him, but unfortunately, the only one I have is on my 1954 Van Orden, which was a gift from a friend.   Take care of him Louis. He is a very nice guy and I am pleased to call him a friend. Thanks, Big Larry

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July 15, 2016 - 4:30 pm
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I know there are only a couple of guys interested in this but here are some photos anyway.  Any and all comments are welcome as I am trying to learn about this thing.  It does have a dovetail on the underside of the target barrel for a forearm screw boss but it does not look like one was ever installed.  Looking for opinions on the bolt bluing (the bolt body is blued and I am pretty sure that is not correct) and anything else you sharp-eyed guys notice.  I also took some photos of the stock and butt plate.  The stock has some small handling dings and a light indentation where the bottom edge of the 48WH rested.  The barrel is only slightly free-floated as a piece of paper slides all the way back but drags a bit the whole way.

Based on the condition of the butt plate and the stock finish wear at the toe it looks like it was shot off of a bench most of its life.

Thanks for indulging me.

Best Regards,

 

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July 15, 2016 - 4:34 pm
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More photos;

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July 16, 2016 - 12:06 am
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JWA-

Per Big Larry’s instructions, send me a PM with a mailing address and I’ll send you a Lyman 48WH gratis.  One box end is torn, but mounting screws are included.  I can throw in a set of correct target scope blocks, but they will not have ‘dimples’ (and they probably won’t have clean screws).  Sorry, Larry… I don’t have a spare set of blocks with dimples…  At least they’ll do until you find something that you like better.  The front block is a Lyman ‘AK’ with a Lyman 77R globe sight.  A 1 1/4″ M1907 sling completes the rig as delivered by Evaluator’s Ltd. 

FWIW… the Evaluator’s Ltd info that came with these rifles recommended the Lyman Super Targetspot (not a Unertl) as the preferred accessory…  So for a 50’s rifle you can go up to 30X and be period correct!!!

Another thing that might support the originality of the stock is that it looks like it has 1 1/4″ sling swivels, which were provided on the Van Orden rifles.  The glass bedding is a later addition, and I do not know about the barrel bedding (vide supra).  It looks like mine, however.  You are right the bolt body has been reblued, and the bolt knob was polished before it was re-dipped.  Could certainly be redone inexpensively to look more like original if desired.  Maybe do it if the rifle shoots great.

If I remember correctly, the famous Viet Nam era M70 sniper rifles, e.g. Carlos “White Feather” Hathcock’s famous rifle, were done up similar to this rifle.  Those were the SN range 41-50K rifles mentioned in the original post on this thread.  The story was that at the outset of US involvement in WWII hostilities, the Army and Marine Corps bought a few hundred M70 rifles that were in stock at the factory.  These were all 30GOV’T’06 standard rifles, and never saw more than Stateside base/guard duty.  

Sometime in the ’50s, many of the survivors stashed away in US Arsenals were refit as Sniper Rifles.  The standard weight barrels were removed and replaced either with Winchester factory 30-06 target barrels bought as parts, or with Douglas 30-06 24″ Target barrels with the same contour as Winchester factory.  This creates the interesting possibility of an original ’42 action with a US Arsenal fit Winchester Target barrel bearing a 50’s date stamp.  If the original standard stock of these rifles was still usable, it was retained, the barrel channel was opened up, and the action was glass bedded.  It the Standard stock was trash, it was replaced with a Marksman stock bought as parts from the Winchester factory.  The scope on these rifles was the WW2 surplus 8X Unertl.  This is all based on stuff I’ve read – no real data.

Of course, your rifle, like mine, was civilian sold and never military property.  Big Larry’s was one of the Van Orden rifles bought by the military for marksmanship team use, so his has the ‘US Property’ mark, while ours do not.  Some unknown number of the military marksmanship unit Van Orden rifles found their way to Viet Nam (there’s one famous example pictured on p100 of Peter Senich’s book “The One Round War”).  But there’s nothing I know of to indicate that civilian-sold Van Orden Snipers ever saw combat.

Really nice rare M70 variation!!!  Congrats…

Lou

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July 16, 2016 - 1:18 am
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Lou,

I am extremely honored and flattered by your offer of the 48WH but don’t let Big Larry pressure you into giving it up.  I am in no hurry and can spend a little time searching for one.  In the end I may still take you up on the offer but let me shake the bushes first since I will be visiting the Denver show in a few weeks and the Big Reno show after that.  I am a Winchester parts hoarder and know the sense of loss you would feel if you gave it up as good parts are getting harder to find.  Again, I really appreciate the extremely generous offer and hope I can be of some service to you in the future.

Also, thanks for providing all of the background info!  For some reason I am fascinated by the history on these rifles, even though this one was simply a civilian purchase it certainly had a famous pedigree.

I am really anxious to get it out and see what it will do.  I will throw a good target scope on it to wring it out on the bench and can then decide to move forward based on the results.  As I mentioned, I am certainly not a Model 70 expert from a collector standpoint but do know a thing or two about tuning rifles.  This one does not appear to have had anything exotic done to it.  Possibly a touch of a stone on the trigger and sear, the action bedding, target barrel and free-floating appear to be the only enhancements I see to what would otherwise be a standard Model 70.  While the trigger breaks nice and crisp and the action/stock are solid I am not really expecting Match quality from it but am curious to see if it is more accurate than some of my standard grade Model 70’s.  We’ll see what happens…….

I forgot to mention that when I removed the butt plate to clean/oil/check for rust underneath, the serial number 220290 was faintly penciled on the butt end of the stock.  Does yours have the serial number penciled on the stock under the butt plate?

Also, what did you think about the forearm dovetail on the target barrel?  Is that normal for a medium heavy barrel?  I am wondering why it would be there and not used since the stock could accommodate it unless it was intended to be free-floated from the beginning.  Sorry for all the questions.

Best Regards,

Jeff

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July 16, 2016 - 1:55 am
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I just checked the Chandler reference again and 220290 was sold to James R. Athey from Fort Bragg (home of the Special Operations Forces).  Individual sale to a possible soldier.  Makes it even more interesting……

I will have to do some digging to find out what his background was.

Regards,

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July 16, 2016 - 2:00 am
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Hi, 

I have been following these Model 70 threads for a while. I know zero about these. One thing that I have noticed is the friendship and humility of the WACO Model 70 collectors.

Congrats

Walter

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July 16, 2016 - 2:07 am
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Hi JWA-

It would not be much of a loss to me, so let me know.  Big Larry is a good guy!!!  I have two spare 48WH sights.  The one in the box is the later model identical to what was for sale on Ebay.  The other (that I intend to keep) is a post ’47 half block, but the slightly earlier version that has the (part cut away) leaf spring on the block.  That would be correct for a ’47-’50-ish Target rifle and I’m still looking for post-47/pre-52 M70 target rifles in unusual chamberings, e.g. a .270 WCF.  The later sight would be useful only if I ever bought a late Bull Gun, which is not on my ‘to-do’ list at present.

I do not think I ever took the butt plate off SN 351439.  I’ll have to look when I get the chance.

As for dovetails on the under side of target barrels in general, it seem to me to be ‘hit-or-miss’.  Like target block holes drilled on top of pre-war 24″ MH 375 MAGNUM barrels.  Or rear sight dovetails cut into the barrel boss of National Match rifles.  Superfluous manufacturing step, but not unusual.  

As it happens, the M70 Target rifles (MH barrel) that I have do not have dovetails cut underneath.  This includes examples spanning the range from SN 3339 to 499381.  BUT… my understanding is that some Target barrels were dovetailed and I don’t make anything of it at all.  As I said, my Van Orden barrel is not dovetailed and the fore end bedding screw is a dummy.  From ’36 on Winchester advertised their Target rifle barrels as ‘free floated’, meaning that they did not have a functional fore end bedding screw (not necessarily that they did not have the dovetail).

On the other hand, the barrel bedding screw dovetail on the 24″ MH barrel 375 MAGNUMs was functional, i.e. had the escutcheon installed on the barrel mated to a bedding screw through the stock.  A couple other odd-ball non-catalogued pre-war ramped straight taper barrel M70s I have (chambered for things other than 375 MAGNUM) also have dovetails and functional bedding screws.  So sometimes the factory milled the slots and sometimes they did/did not use them.  It raises no ‘red flags’ for me either way.

Let us know how the rifle does on the range.  I’ve never fired mine…

Lou

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July 16, 2016 - 3:25 am
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Hey Walter-

Apropos of my notes above, do you know why Carlos Hathcock, the famous Viet Nam War sniper who used a M70 for many of his kills, wore a white feather in his hat band (leading to the nickname)?

‘White Feather’ was the traditional British Colonial military symbol for cowardice.  Gotta’ love the ironic sense of humor of these Viet Nam soldiers.  Story goes that once the VC put a big bounty on Hathcock, many of his fellow snipers began wearing the white feather, while continuing to do their best for their Country.  For me it’s an honor to be a part-time VA physician (academic affiliate) and get to talk to a lot of these guys…

My feeling about WACA (or WACO as you – perhaps intentionally – described M70 collectors – I would not necessarily disagree), is that most members are bright knowledgeable people who know a helluvalot about their particular areas of interest, and are happy to share what they know.  In my little (M70) area, I am glad that Vicvanb, Seewin, TedK and others choose to contribute, as I have learned a tremendous amount from them.  I wish Pauline Muerrle would also come back as a regular contributor, as she is another TRUE GENTLEMAN (no sexism intended), with awesome expertise.

Cheers,

Lou

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July 16, 2016 - 3:42 am
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JWA said
I just checked the Chandler reference again and 220290 was sold to James R. Athey from Fort Bragg (home of the Special Operations Forces).  Individual sale to a possible soldier.  Makes it even more interesting……

I will have to do some digging to find out what his background was.

Regards,  

 

JWA,

This is likely the same James R. Athey, who was an officer in the Army, with what looks to be a 1 February 1963 retirement date as a Captain.  He also looks to be the son of James R. and Alice Athey of Kansas City, Wyandotte, Kansas – but it’s possible I am wrong.

James

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July 16, 2016 - 1:47 pm
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Lou,

Thanks for the great info!  I will have to wait a bit for it to cool down below 100 deg. before I can take it out and put it through its paces (probably September’ish) but will keep you guys posted about the results.  Just out of curiosity I will pit it against my 1952 standard grade .30-06 #206145 which is the closest number I have to the 1952 Van Orden #220290 and I will also shoot it against a .30-06 Featherweight #341121.  The goal of the testing is simply to determine how much, if any, accuracy difference there is between the Evaluator’s Ltd. rifle and a standard “off the shelf” Model 70.  It may not even be measurable at the shorter ranges of 100-200 yds.  I will have to find myself a white feather before I take it over to the 300 meter known distance range.

Again, I really appreciate your (and everyone else’s) help with this rifle as my knowledge about the Model 70 is almost non-existent.  If it wasn’t for Roger Rule I probably wouldn’t even be able to spell “Model 70”. 

 

Walter,

I had a good chuckle about your WACO Freudian slip and you are absolutely correct, WACA members are some of the finest people around and I am very happy they let me play at the grownup table with my little .22’s.  Their depth of knowledge and willingness to share never ceases to amaze me.

 

Jwm94,

It was a real pleasure chatting with you at Cody and I really appreciate the very informative history of the Van Orden family (all three generations) which you passed on to me over coffee.  I believe you are correct that is the same James R. Athey and really appreciate the starting point for the research as that helps tremendously!

 

Best Regards,

Jeff

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