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I have a 1950 Winchester model 70 Target rifle in 30-06. I am trying to replace the aftermarket sight that was installed on it with the original sight.
The gun has a 1949 barrel. I read it was called a 2nd variation target barrel. It has a dovetail slot cut into the barrel near the muzzle. From what I have read it originally came with a Lyman 77R sight mounted to a cross shaped dovetail block. I believe it is supposed to look like this:
I have found a sight with the cross style site block but it seems to be a lower height block than ones I have seen in pictures. The block I found is marked “AK”. From the picture, it seems like an AK block would put the site base almost directly on top of the barrel.
Lyman listed the block heights as:
AK – .185
BK – .260
K – .300
KK – .370
Does anyone know what the correct sight and sight block combo for my rifle would be? Likewise, any clues on where to chase one down? I would prefer a sight of the correct vintage.
Thank you for your help!
Chuck
In my collection I have a 1953 dated M70 target rifle that was an original Van Orden Sniper bought by the US Army at the 1954 NM’s at Camp Perry.
I have the original papers supplied by Peter Senich, the gentleman who wrote all the Sniper books.
If I remember right, he specified the AK base with a M77 Winchester sight, and a Lyman 48-WH rear. This was the Generals standard from Evaluators LTD.
I would have to take the base from my M70 to be sure, but I don’t like hammering on this scarce piece of military history.
If you would like a pic of the rifle, or copies of the Van Orden papers, e-mail me at [email protected] Big Larry
Chuck-
The closest I’ve got, like Big Larry, is a 1955 ‘Van Orden sniper’ rifle (S/N 351439), which metal-wise was a regular 30-06 Target Model, but manufactured with a special order standard style stock with different butt stock dimensions, etc. I believe that the sights on my rifle are original. The front sight is pictured below:
I’m pretty sure that the front block matches the ‘AK’ dimensions. If you look closely at ‘AK’, ‘BK’, ‘K’, ‘KK’ (cross dovetail) series blocks in general, the ‘AK’ adds no ‘height’ between the dovetail that fits the barrel and the 90 degree dovetail that accepts the Lyman 77R sight. Both of your pictures above seem to fit that description, along with the one I just attached. (Just noticed that the first pic you showed was mine from PhotoBucket???)
The one minor caveat is that in general, original target blocks on Winchester M70 rifles are not stamped with a letter code on the underside of the dovetail, while aftermarket blocks from Lyman or Unertl are ‘coded’. Not that it would show with the block installed. Like Big Larry, I have not removed the from block from my rifle to look at the underside. So realistically I would not worry about it.
Hope this helps…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Guys,
Thanks for the input. The larger picture does appear to show the sight base right on top of the barrel. I’ll get the AK height block and sight. Are all the Lyman 77R front sights the same or are there differences depending on the vintage (marking locations etc)?
Thanks again,
Chuck
Chuck. There are several variations of the M77. “R”, “H”, “no markings”, the earliest one has patent dates on it and is seldom seen. Some are marked on the front and some on the side. In all honesty, I don’t know which is which, except for the ones with the patent date. I have one of those on an early 1939 vintage M52-B. Never seen another.
I found my copy of Evaluators Limited specs for the Van Orden Sniper Rifle and it calls for a M77, no specification of which, and a AK base. Actually it says M77AK and there is no such thing. It also calls for the Lyman STS for the preferred scope. The scope I got with the rifle was so beat up, Parsons Scope Service estimated over $800 to fix it, so I sold it for parts. Serial number placed it somewhere around the Viet Nam war. Mr. Senich said it was more than likely used in Viet Nam early on.
I think the AK is one of the lowest bases. Big Larry
Chuck-
I think Big Larry is right on…
Couple bits of additional information. First the photo below:
At the top is a photo I took of a 1946 220 Swift Target Model with the front sight removed. I’ve no reason to think this is not the original sight block. Clearly an ‘AK’. Below is a comparison of AK, K, BK and KK marked cross dovetail blocks (various vintages/manufacturers, but standardized heights). It’s easy to see that the taller blocks have a rectangular spacer between the two dovetails to add height.
The second photo was ‘borrowed’ from the internet:
It is a photo of the original information packet that Evaluators Limited shipped with each Van Order Sniper rifle. Note what is says about sights. ’77A’ Hooded ramp front sight? Similar to what Larry’s original paper work says. The sight on my Van Orden rifle is marked ’77R’ which is the lowest style of Lyman 77. The block is an ‘AK’.
Hope this helps…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Interesting. My copy is from 1953 and is a little different. I also have the full list of the Evaluator LTD. rifles shipped to Camp Perry in 1954. Also on the list is all the rifle equipment and ammo. All came from Peter Senich the author. My rifle has had the US that was electric penciled on the receiver ground off, but in a good light, you can still make it out. Stupid paranoid person. # 272958 has a “53” bbl. date and appears to be correct. Big Larry
Hi Big Larry-
I know this is off the topic of the original post, but did you notice the rifle pictured below in last Fall’s RIA Premier Auction? S/N 220285, which by serial number is a Van Orden Sniper according to “Death From Afar – Vol 1”:
The stock looks strictly Win M70 standard rifle (checkered, lacquer finish, etc.) but the serial number is right. Not the special butt stock dimensions of the Evaluator’s Limited ‘Special Target’ (marksman stock) or ‘Sniper’ (standard stock) rifles. Would have been an ‘early’ one though. The ‘box’ is even marked ‘SPECIAL’.
What do you think? Real thing? It sold for ‘cheap’ – not to me – I only have need for one!!!
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
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