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A Winchester Model 1876, 45/60 Rifle Restored by Turnbull
It occurs to me that some collectors may have rifles that they wish to have restored. So, I thought I would share my experiences with you. Over one and a half years ago, I sent Doug Turnbull my Model 1876, chambered for the 45/60 WCF cartridge. After a prolonged wait, and over $6,200.00 outlay, I finally received my rifle. I was underwhelmed, to say the least. While the barrel and magazine tube were acceptable, the receiver, side plates and stock were, in my and other who saw the rifle opinion, the rifle was not up to par. The metal work was replete with striations and marks that gave the impression that the action had not been fully prepared prior to color-case hardening. The stock was [and is] wavy and uneven, with numerous sanding marks. Most concerning, however, are the side plates which have a series of parallel indentations in them. These are not only visible, but deep enough that they can be felt as well [see photos].
Once I received my rifle, I contacted Turnbull’s company with my concerns. They then sent me a call tag to send the rifle back to them. Three weeks later I got it back from them [again]. The only difference I can see in the rifle is that it now has additional scratches in the color-case hardening and there are several scratches on the magazine tube, revealing bare metal, that were not there before.
Turnbull’s position is that there is nothing wrong with the rifle and [presumably], this is what one should expect for a mere $6,200.00 At least, that’s what I gather since they returned the rifle without further comment. As to the indentations in the side plates, they maintain that those are forging marks created when the side plates were manufactured. Now, I don’t know if Winchester forged side plates or not, but I’m reasonably certain that those marks were not there when I originally shipped the rifle. I’ve never seen such marks on any other 1876 I’ve ever examined. If any of you have any information regarding how 1876 side plates were made, I’d like to hear from you.
Since this community has a great deal of expertise, I’ve included several photos for your consideration. As I say, I’ve posted this for the benefit of individuals who are considering having their firearms restored. Speaking for myself, this entire process has left me with a sour taste and, despite the wait and expense; I doubt I’ll keep this rifle. However, I’ll leave you to draw your own conclusions. Any comments or observations would be appreciated.
I will try to go to Cody gun show in July to display this rifle to show the workmanship of Doug Turnbull and have all Winchester collectors be the judge for his workmanship.
NRA, SAFARI CLUB INT'L SASS LIFE MEBER, POW MIA ACTIVE MEMEBER.
Sam,
I have seen Turnbulls guns for a long time and never did like his work. Rogers Restorations did a far superior job but he has retired now. You posted the pictures before and they are not forging marks.
Is that a repaired wrist on the stock?
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob,
I did posted the pictures before but I did not mention any name, because I like to talk to Turnbull so solve the problems first, but I never talk to Turnbull myself just talk to his foreman name Sam, he told me that it all he can do, and he cannot do anything better than this, and he still insisted it is a forging marked, Cody is not too far from Pocatello, we went to museum many times, this time I will be there just to bring my rifle to show Turnbull workmanship.
Yes, I did took the stock off, inspected it not spilt or crack, original owner put repaired wrist on the for re-enforce.
Turnbull want to replace the stock, I told him no, it look cool with that repair wrist.
Bob, I still have three or four rifles I bought them with the bunch of them have been left in the barn for many years to restore them, now I cannot trust Turnbull any more. Do you know any other restore Winchester can do better job than Turnbull?
NRA, SAFARI CLUB INT'L SASS LIFE MEBER, POW MIA ACTIVE MEMEBER.
Do you have pictures of what it looked like before the restoration? If not take a picture of one of the others. I just want to get a idea of what he had to start with.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
DT usually attends the Cody shows, might be a good time to address the issues with him personally.
Mike Hunter said
DT usually attends the Cody shows, might be a good time to address the issues with him personally.
My conversations with the foreman name Sam he told me that, he talk to DT, DT told him that’s all he can do, why should I talk to him again. I met him once on January at Las Vegas antique gun show asking him about my rifle (1876) he have for restore over a year, he will check it out and let me know, two week later they put it together, call me it completed, so I did paid him, when I get the rifle back I am very disappointed of his work so I did call him back, but never talk to DT, Just talk to the foreman, he insisted the side plate marked are from forging in the past, the sanding marked left on stock because of the old wood the unable to do much more than that, I have a few original picture did not have these marks before, I will post it later when I find it on my files.
I would like to the truth about Winchester was forging the side plate on 1876 rifle.
Anyone know about this please give me some input, so I can talk to DT.
THIS IS THE WORSE EXPERINCE NIGHTMARE I EVER HAVE WHEN THE BEST AND THE BIGEST NAME IN RE-STREATION DID A POOR WORK LIKE THIS.
NRA, SAFARI CLUB INT'L SASS LIFE MEBER, POW MIA ACTIVE MEMEBER.
Sam,
The Receiver will have forging lines in it but they run front to back with slight curves to them. The side plates were not forged and have never seen lines on them. Here is the picture of your side plate. What are the lines that they say are forging marks, the one circled in red or the ones parallel to the yellow lines?
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I’ve dropped by Turnbull’s restoration a couple times and admired the finished rifles on their rack, including a couple absolutely gorgeously restored 1876’s. I’ve always been impressed by the quality of their workmanship. On the other hand, those vertical indentations on your receiver are not forging marks. Any striations I have ever seen on old Winchesters are always more or less horizontal, not vertical. Here is a photo of an old ’76 I once had that shows faint horizontal striations on the side plate.
The sideplates of the 1873 and 1876s were forged. The marks identified do not look like typical forging marks.
I generally sit next to DT at the Cody, show, if you’re not too far from Cody WY, sow DT personally, let him tell you whats going on, give him a chance to explain.
V/R
Mike
Mike Hunter said
The sideplates of the 1873 and 1876s were forged. The marks identified do not look like typical forging marks.
I generally sit next to DT at the Cody, show, if you’re not too far from Cody WY, sow DT personally, let him tell you whats going on, give him a chance to explain.
V/R
Mike
I would agree. Nothing to loose and maybe a chance to have it made right. I will say something additional about the wood. If you requested the original wood to be refinished, that can be very tricky sanding if there are any dings in it whatsoever. Sanding out any dings without leaving any depressions would require an overall complete sanding, but then the fit on the receiver and buttplate might be undersize. Not sure how I would refinish the stocks without some sort of a compromise.
Mike Hunter said
The sideplates of the 1873 and 1876s were forged. The marks identified do not look like typical forging marks.
V/R
Mike
I would of thought the side plates would of been made from cold rolled stock.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I find the pictures of the left side plate odd and unusual. One of the marks, streaks or whatever you want to call it, almost appears to have a shadow. I almost wonder if when they re-case hardened it, if it were somewhat to hot or something. Or cooled to fast or something in there color hardening process went haywire.
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Bob
I stand corrected, the side plates were not forged, but were “punched” out of mild steel with a die… I had to look it up.
The side plates were made out of the same steel as the frame, so “gun steel” not quite the same as CRS, but pretty darn close.
My apologies
V/R
Mike
I take it that there would of been a left and a right die then? Or was the opening for the loading gate milled afterward?
I know the spring portion of the loading gate was milled as the milling marks are easy enough to see.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Yes for sure R/L hand dies. Probably several single stage hand transfer dies to perform the different operations rather than a modern coil fed progressive die that would throw off a finished L and R part with each press stroke I was a die maker with modern equipment and have to admire the ingenuity of our Ancestors with crude tools . The best part of my job tho was being able to work on Gun projects , and I know there are several others here on the Forum who Have Toolmaking backgrounds
Thanks for all the input of your comments. I ‘m own a gun shop and in door gun range in Pocatello, Idaho which not too far fro Cody, I went to the museum twice in the past, the problem I have now is I did reserved tables in Bozeman gun show which is the same day of Cody show, I will try to talk to promoter if I can cancel his show and credit my money back to the next Bozeman show, if I can I will go to Cody for sure.
I think DT will not do anything about this because the shop foreman told me he did talk to DT and nothing DT can do.
I did inspected the forearm it have the same problem as the stock, they charge me $700.00 (it is OK if the do it right) for the new wood, I think they used the original forearm and charge me for a new wood, I am going to see a gun smith have him take this forearm off, if they use my old forearm I will do something about it.
I put this rifle on the counter display at my gun shop to have the customers who come in the gun shop to see the workmanship of DT then have them write a comment on my comment book, I will let DT know how good of his restoration are.
NRA, SAFARI CLUB INT'L SASS LIFE MEBER, POW MIA ACTIVE MEMEBER.
I haven’t paid much attention to Turnbull’s work, so in that regard, I have little comment other than this–If his company normally returns rifles in the condition your receiver and side-plates exhibit, how do they stay in business?
Seeing six decades on the Planet, and observing human-nature, I’ll offer this: If you want to get your money back or want to have Turnbull pretty-up that rifle, you might be better to not spread around negative publicity prior to talking personally with Turnbull. The more you sling mud at him and his reputation, the less chance you will have coming out clean.
Some folks work at raising a stink, and they seem to get an odd reward out of it. (Not saying that you do.) But even years later, it still sits undigested in their craw. Better to treat him right prior to hearing what he has to say–before hearing if he has a solution that will benefit both of you. That way you can maybe have a dandy rifle and feel better at passing this problem.
Bypass the foreman. If Turnbull, personally, reviews your problem and deems your rifle is “restored” to a condition that they are satisfied with, then you will have ammunition from the head man with which to carry on the battle.
QOUTE;{Bypass the foreman. If Turnbull, personally, reviews your problem and deems your rifle is “restored” to a condition that they are satisfied with, then you will have ammunition from the head man with which to carry on the battle.}
FORMEMAN TOLD ME, HE DID SHOW IT TO DT AND, TALK TO HIM ABOUT IT, DT TOLD HIM HE CANNOT DO ANY BETTER, THAT WHY I GOT SO UPSET, AFTER I GOT MY RIFLE BACK SECOND TIME WITH MORE SCRATCHED AND MARKED ON MY RIFL, I DID NOT BAD MOUNTH OR TRY TO GET MY MONEY BACK, I AM TRYING TO HAVE DT TO IT RIGHT BUT THEY WON’T DO IT.
I WILL TAKE THIS RIFLE TO EITHER BOZEMAN OR CODY SHOW, THEN DENVER, TULSA AND MANY SHOW WHEN I GO. THIS RIFLE NOW DISPLAY AT NY STORE:
NRA, SAFARI CLUB INT'L SASS LIFE MEBER, POW MIA ACTIVE MEMEBER.
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