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Question about Model 70 "Van Orden Sniper" rifle
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January 8, 2015 - 12:35 am
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Dear Experts (I LOVE having so many in one place!!!):

Is there anyone out there who has first hand knowledge of the “Van Orden Sniper” Model 70s?  I am wondering if anyone knows what modifications were done at the shop (Evaluators Ltd.) prior to sale to customers?

For anyone interested who does not know already, the “Van Orden Sniper” is one of the few “special order” Model 70 Winchesters that is independently verifiable (the records of the shop that ordered them still exist).  They have a fascinating history, in that “Evaluators Ltd.” proprietor was UMSC Brigadier General (ret) George Owen Van Orden, known as the “Father of Marine Corps Snipers” because of his co-authorship in 1942 of a Marine Corps report recommending adoption of the M70 rifle with Unertl 8X scope for military use (ultimately unsuccessful) and his subsequent role establishing the training program for USMC snipers.  After his retirement (following the Korean conflict), he and his wife (Flora) opened a gun shop located in Triangle, VA near the Quantico Marine Corps base (and FBI training headquarters located there).  The shop specialized in selling firearms and equipment to military and law enforcement personnel.  The shop’s offerings included modified Winchester Model 70 30-06 target rifles for match competition.  They offered two versions, both based on the M70 30-06 target rifle of the mid-1950s; the “Special Target” which featured a Marksman stock with special dimensions, and a “Sniper” version that was equipped with an uncheckered, oil-finished, “standard” rifle stock with dimensions that approximated the Springfield M1903A1 National Match rifle.  (I understand the “sniper” rifles were designed to to conform to NRA match regulations of the time that imposed a weight limit – the Marksman stock plus target barrel was too much…)  While many of these rifles were sold to military branches for marksmanship team use, some (about 90) were sold to civilians.  It is claimed that some of the military match rifles did find their way to Viet Nam, but of course the M70 was never adopted by any branch of the military as a combat weapon. 

I’ve attached a composite of photos of my civilian-sold Van Orden Sniper rifle (S/N 351439).  The last page is from Chandler’s book “Death from Afar – Volume 1” confirming the serial number.  I will remove this page if Iron Brigade Armory (who own the copyright) object: 

http://s1382.photobucket.com/user/luttrell4/media/M70VanOrdenSniperedit351439_Page_1_zpsd4940125.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

My observations are:

BARRELED ACTION: The action is standard mid-1950’s Model 70 “Heavy Weight Target” (Catalog No. G7044C). Clip slotted receiver (standard on all 30-06 M70 target models from 1937-1963), factory drilled & tapped on top of receiver/bridge and left rear (for receiver sight). The barrel is 24″ medium heavy contour, under chamber barrel date stamp ’30-06 55′ (for 1955 manufacture of the barrel), standard exposed roll markings. This one has what Rule refers to as a “second variation” target barrel, as it has a 3/8″ dovetail at the muzzle to accept the front sight mounting block (as opposed to the two 6-48 holes that defined the “third variation” target barrel). There is no provision on the underside of the barrel to accept a fore end stock screw.

SIGHTS: Lyman 77 globe front sight, Lyman 48WH receiver sight, Lyman-type telescope sight blocks on barrel and receiver ring.

STOCK: The original literature that accompanied these rifles from Evaluators Ltd (shown p. 101 of Senich’s “The One-Round War) described the stock as “dense walnut 4-position Sniper Stock with length of pull, drop and pitch approximating that of the U.S. Rifle cal 30 M1903A1; stock smooth finished and drenched to saturation with linseed oil, without checkering or lacquer”. The stock dimensions on S/N 351439 seem to match the M1903A1 type ‘C’ stock pretty well: LOP 13.0″ (M70 standard stocks were 13.5″), drop at heel about 1.4″ (M70 stocks were closer to 2.5″), butt angle about 90 degrees (greater than the M70 standard stock). The butt plate is M70 standard rifle checkered steel with protrusion at top inlet into the stock. The stock is uncheckered and has an oil finish. 1 1/4″ standard Winchester sling swivels. The fore end dimensions look pretty close to M70 Standard rifle. Interestingly, there is a provision for the fore end barrel screw in the stock (like the Standard rifle stocks), which on the Van Orden rifle is filled by a shortened stock screw with an inset escutcheon in the barrel channel (as the barrel is not dovetailed to accept a fore end screw).

The only thing that seems ‘non-factory’ to me is that the barrel channel is free floated (enough to easily pass a dollar bill).  There is no bedding compound in the stock. The Evaluators limited literature indicates that these rifles were match tuned at the shop prior to sale and “warranted ready as received for competition without further modification other than the determination of the user’s zero.”

If anybody has any knowledge of what work was done on the Van Orden rifles at Evaluators Ltd, I would love to know.

Best,

Lou

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January 8, 2015 - 2:57 am
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Hi Lou. I just happen to have a fully documented Van Orden Sniper sold to the US Army at the 1954 National matches. The rifle was a gift from a friend and the papers came from Peter Senich himself, a friend of mine. Something is wrong with my computer or this forum and I cannot post pictures. If you would email me at [email protected], I would be happy to send pics of mine and the paperwork I got from Peter. Whoever got the rifle years later. ground off the US markings on the receiver, but you can still barely see them. This rifle also appears in his “One Round War” with a sporting stock. He said it was probably used as a Sniper Rifle. It had a real piece of junk Lyman STS attached when I got it. I got an original target stock for it from a well know Sniper Rifle collector and restored it. Big Larry

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January 8, 2015 - 4:52 pm
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Big Larry

Thank you.  That’s excellent.  I’ll send an e-mail (my e-mail is [email protected]).

Best,

Lou

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August 8, 2016 - 1:10 pm
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Just hung out with GVO last weekend!! I know all about this!!

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August 8, 2016 - 4:49 pm
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Big Larry said
Hi Lou. I just happen to have a fully documented Van Orden Sniper sold to the US Army at the 1954 National matches. The rifle was a gift from a friend and the papers came from Peter Senich himself, a friend of mine. Something is wrong with my computer or this forum and I cannot post pictures. If you would email me at [email protected], I would be happy to send pics of mine and the paperwork I got from Peter. Whoever got the rifle years later. ground off the US markings on the receiver, but you can still barely see them. This rifle also appears in his “One Round War” with a sporting stock. He said it was probably used as a Sniper Rifle. It had a real piece of junk Lyman STS attached when I got it. I got an original target stock for it from a well know Sniper Rifle collector and restored it. Big Larry  

 

I am REALLY looking forward to this thread as I am a novice Van Orden fan and looking for info as well.  Thanks for kicking it off Lou!

Larry, I saw your Van Orden with the sporting stock on page 100.  Do you still have the sporting stock?  I am wondering if it is the same as the sporting stock that came on mine (220290).  If the sporting stock is still available I would like to know what the barrel channel inletting looks like, if it was bedded and how the barrel forend screw hole was addressed? 

Thanks!

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August 8, 2016 - 6:15 pm
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Hey guys, if you have not seen the information at the following link about the VanOrden family, check it out.  I had the privilege of having George VanOrden III as my Assistant OIC of the first pre-NAM Sniper School Class which was conducted by Brigade Schools, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Brigade, MCAS Kaneohe Bay, HI.  The school was held at Puuloa Rifle Range on Oahu in 1962.  2Lt. Willis was the OIC.   

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/59654-info-on-ww2-usmc-gen/

 

James

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August 8, 2016 - 11:33 pm
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Jeremy/Jeff/jwm94-

Thank you for the link.  I’m glad you dug up this older thread, as it also has a link to the more detailed pics of the internals of Van Orden SN 351439 (first post above).

The conversation continues at:   https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-swap-meet/wtb-van-orden-model-70s-and-model-70s-serial-number-range-41000-50000/

I’m looking forward to Jeff’s updates on SN 220290!!!

Best,

Lou

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August 10, 2016 - 4:34 pm
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I’m also glad this thread got pulled back up. Tonight I will pull my U.S. Property marked match rifle out and see if it falls in the range of these guns.

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August 11, 2016 - 12:11 pm
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Well, did not see it on the list I could pull up. Mine is in the 409,5xx range, did see several in the 411,xxx range though.

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August 11, 2016 - 3:36 pm
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Very interesting…  Justin (pre64-win) sent me photos this week of a US Government Property marked M70 Target rifle SN 409542.  Probably the same batch as your rifle.  Certainly argues for the originality of the US Property markings on it, as the rifle he was showing me is still in a military armory!!!  

Is yours in the regular Target rifle configuration, Marksman stock, Lyman 48WH/77R sights, etc?

Hopefully he’ll see this post…

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August 12, 2016 - 12:56 pm
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Ill be with George again at the end of the month…….Ill get a pic of one of the original Rifles….with George if he lets me!

The knowledge this man knows is mind boggling!!! Such an honor to have worked for this man!!

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August 12, 2016 - 2:45 pm
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That would great, look forward to seeing the photos – thanks!

Regards,

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August 15, 2016 - 5:40 pm
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Louis Luttrell said
Very interesting…  Justin (pre64-win) sent me photos this week of a US Government Property marked M70 Target rifle SN 409542.  Probably the same batch as your rifle.  Certainly argues for the originality of the US Property markings on it, as the rifle he was showing me is still in a military armory!!!  

Is yours in the regular Target rifle configuration, Marksman stock, Lyman 48WH/77R sights, etc.  

Yes, it is set up with those sights and also has scope blocks for mounting a Untertl scope. It came with a 20x Unertl mounted on it.

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August 15, 2016 - 11:51 pm
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Just checked my rifle, will try and post pics later. Seriel #409,523, very close indeed.

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August 16, 2016 - 12:14 am
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Here is another Van Orden. I was not even aware of this until checking the s/n’s. This rifle has been in our family for close to 50 years. I never thought to even check the number since it had a Marksman stock. I wonder if this could have been one of the rifles that was converted to target configuration. S/N is 335330. My father got this from a friend who worked at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. Dad shot it competition for many years and passed it on to me. Based on what I have read it was originally shipped to the Army depot in Philadelphia.

SteveDSC4785.JPGImage EnlargerDSC4801.JPGImage Enlarger

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August 16, 2016 - 1:19 am
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Steve-

That’s awesome!!!  Of course I’ve always assumed you had at least one of everything stashed away somewhere…  

One thing I’ve wondered (as I do not have the source data) is whether the published SNs in Chandler include both the “Sniper” (modified standard stock) and “Special Target” (Marksman stock) versions offered by Evaluator’s Ltd.  Yours is in “Special Target” configuration.

Does it have a glass bedded action (like the one JWA picked up)?  Is the barrel channel free floated?  As I’ve stated (don’t want to be too repetitive), my civilian-sold Van Order has no glass bedding but the barrel channel was modified enough to slide a piece of paper between the barrel and stock.  Seems that perhaps the arsenal approach in the 50s was to glass bed actions and float barrels.

Is yours “US Property” marked like Big Larry’s?

BTW… This is a naive question, but what causes the handling marks just in front of the bolt handle that one sees all the time on Target rifles, but not on sporting rifles?

Best,

Lou

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August 16, 2016 - 2:17 am
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Lou, I have never really had much interest in the Military aspects of the Model 70. So, never paid much attention to the Van Ordens. This particular gun is bedded under front part of action, and free floated. I am not sure if it was done by Van Orden or some point later. I know my father did not do it, and we are the third owners, with the Army being the 1st.  See picture attached. It is not U.S. marked, although I have another one very similar to it, that came from the same individual that is marked “U.S. Property”. It is not listed in the Van Orden numbers, but is very close. It is s/n 338582. Picture attached of it as well. The only explanation I can give on the marks in front of bolt is that it was a result of loading, and possibly using a stripper clip. Both of these guns have been fired a great deal in “across the course” competition. They take a beating.

SteveDSC4735-1.JPGImage EnlargerDSC4851-1.JPGImage EnlargerDSC4838-1.JPGImage EnlargerDSC4875-1.JPGImage Enlarger

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August 16, 2016 - 4:20 am
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Couple of nice model 70’s there Steve.

Here are a few shots of my U.S. marked match target, #409,523. The gentleman I got it from was an Army match shooter who owned it from the early 70’s. I forgot to grab the sights when taking these pics.image.jpegImage Enlargerimage-1.jpegImage Enlargerimage-2.jpegImage Enlargerimage-3.jpegImage Enlargerimage-4.jpegImage Enlarger

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August 28, 2016 - 2:06 am
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Any idea how many match target rifles were made in the pre-64 series?

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August 28, 2016 - 8:44 pm
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I’m not sure the exact question, but here’s a probably irrelevant response.

If you are asking how many total pre-64 M70 30-06 Target Rifles (G7044C) were purchased by the military, I am not aware of any civilian source of that information (or whether/where military records might exist).  

Despite the undeniable fact that an uncertain number of pre-war 30GOV’T’06 Standard grade M70s that were arsenal converted to target configuration, AND a similarly uncertain number of Van Orden (and other?) ‘Sniper’ and ‘Special Target’ rifles found themselves in use in Viet Nam, the M70 was never adopted as a combat weapon.  So most (if not all) of the ‘US Property’ marked examples of G7044C we’ve been discussing were acquired for marksmanship team use.  But how many???

Based on the published information from Evaluator’s Ltd shop records, the Van Orden rifles delivered to US Military purchasers was something on the order of 200 or so.  I did not try to count them up, but if you look at the table in Chandler there are several small ‘blocks’ of consecutive serial numbers that makes the number of rifles delivered larger than the number of entries.  These are in addition to the 90 or so that were civilian-sold.

The US Property marked rifles belonging to Big Larry and Seewin came from Evaluators Ltd.   But as your rifle demonstrates, not all US Property marked G7044C rifles came from that source (or the shop records are incomplete).  How many of those ‘other’ rifles were purchased?  I don’t know if that information is available.

If you are asking the overall question of how many pre-64 M70 Target Rifles in total were produced, approximately 14644, of which maybe 70-80% were chambered in 30-06.  Not counting the National Match rifle or Bull Gun configuration, of course.Wink

Best wishes…

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