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I agree with Bert. Some of you who are not affected are making too many assumptions, and probably should not be getting in the middle of this. For all we know he is doing as directed.
Either way, selling a gun as 99% original and it being redone is awful. Hopefully the buyer does not get stuck with it. Did anyone find a way to contact the buyer and warn them?
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I’ve been following this as have most. I see where several have stated “99% original” was not true. I understand and agree this is a refinished firearm but the seller only ever stated that the gun had “99% blue”. He never said original blue.
See the attached thread:
http://www.coltforum.com/forums/single-action-army/78996-condemned-peacemaker-kopec-letter.html
The Kopec letter states “Dear Mr Ros”, and the post is by cubancrisis. This is either an authenticated Cavalry by John Kopec, or a faked revolver and Kopec letter…
My opinion is that if you are not involved directly you should pretty much stay out of it and stop digging, speculating, etc.
This disturbing practice does affect us all tho really. It seems to be more commonplace and worsening. I think the honest collectors are concerned about the integrity and perceived suspicions of our own collections affecting values in future.
Pretending it isnt happening , and letting the perpetrators continue , is not in honest collectors best interests
Phil
1badf350 said
My opinion is that if you are not involved directly you should pretty much stay out of it and stop digging, speculating, etc.
Chris,
I disagree. Exposing those who purposefully sell Faked “collector” grade guns is something that should be encouraged within the collecting community. Nobody wants to get taken, especially on a high-dollar fake!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
1badf350 said
My opinion is that if you are not involved directly you should pretty much stay out of it and stop digging, speculating, etc.
Chris,
I disagree. Exposing those who purposefully sell Faked “collector” grade guns is something that should be encouraged within the collecting community. Nobody wants to get taken, especially on a high-dollar fake!
Bert
Bert is absolutely right. If we expose a single case of collecting fraud we have done a little toward maintaining the integrity of our hobby and perhaps prevented a future instance. It is analogous to reporting a crime in progress as opposed to looking the other way, possibly making one an accomplice after the fact.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
I’ve tried to contact the most recent buyer through GB with no results. I’ve tried to get contact info from GB and I’ve tried to contact his most recent trano action as well. Don’t what else to do except hope he’s reading this.
This thread has reaffirmed my suspicions about GB’s dubious ethics. That why I’ve abstained from making any 4 figure purchases from them – better to deal with Merz, Burness and Collectors (if your only interests are antiques as is my case).
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Wincacher said
Bert H. said
1badf350 said
My opinion is that if you are not involved directly you should pretty much stay out of it and stop digging, speculating, etc.
Chris,
I disagree. Exposing those who purposefully sell Faked “collector” grade guns is something that should be encouraged within the collecting community. Nobody wants to get taken, especially on a high-dollar fake!
Bert
Bert is absolutely right. If we expose a single case of collecting fraud we have done a little toward maintaining the integrity of our hobby and perhaps prevented a future instance. It is analogous to reporting a crime in progress as opposed to looking the other way, possibly making one an accomplice after the fact.
I should have specified my opinion is only on the particular matter regarding someone contacting the US Attorney’s Office.
Of course my opinion regarding fake guns is the same as everyone else’s.
To all;
Please allow me to add my two cents worth to this thread. It’s hard enough to sell a ledgit, high priced Winchester these days, but it would almost be impossible if everyone of these firearms were under suspicion of being either a “Fake or UNKNOWINGLY Improved”. Hence, if we know, as in this case, there’s bad things going on, no reason not to contact the Authorities if it would help to rid the Collecting Community of some of these folks. Now whether powers that be take any action or not would seem to depend on if the person in question is running for High Political Office or not. Different strokes for different folks!
Apache, (Ya, Ta, Hey, Kola)
Good news, in talking with some other gunbroker sellers we were able to stop the buyer of the short rifle from being taken. The check had been dropped at the post office ready to be shipped out when postal service caught the outgoing check before it was sent. Thanks for everyone’s help.
That’s good news about many of the sellers on Gunbroker.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Hi,
Would it not be ironic that the buyer is pissed because he wanted the gun?
Walter
Interesting question… To some degree it’s both a generational thing and a socioeconomic status thing.
Depression Babies (those who knew the real hardship of poverty) are inherently conservative and reluctant to part with their money or for that matter anything that they think they might ‘need’ at some point in the future (my late Aunts – whom I adored – were a classic example). ‘Baby Boomers’ (my demographic) were raised on the concept of the reward of hard work and self deprivation, i.e. if you want something you have to work hard/earn it/wait for it. Subsequent generations, whether Gen-X or Millennial, grew up in a world where needs are met, whether by parents or (for the weak minded) a ‘paternal government’.
Such an attitude (often associated with new/easy money) leads to a sense of impatience/entitlement, which is what people like ‘cubancrisis’ rely/prey upon. In this case, the buyer is clearly someone of means, and may very well understand his subject. He sees something he wants and enters into a purchase agreement that does not permit a reasonable inspection period, because he does not know when the next such ‘great opportunity’ will come along. He ignores the ‘red flags’ in the terms of purchase and outbids the next buyer in line (it takes at least two to run the price that high…)
Rather than criticize this person (even speculatively), I admit that I identify… We all hope to find the ‘real deal’ (whatever it is) at a price we can afford (which is a relative number). And we want it ‘now’ if at all possible… I have a couple of ‘very rare’ M70 Winchesters (that might even be ‘real’) that I bought because they look right to me and were sold by individuals I (to date) have no reason to doubt. Are they ‘real’? I don’t know. There are a few people I’ve encountered via WACA whose (expert and inherently skeptical) opinions I’d value, and others whose prevailing attitude is ‘If I own it it’s ‘real’ and if you own it it’s ‘fake’/worthless/would have no place in my collection. Takes all kinds…
Nanzca and others who worked to help the buyer in this case have my thanks and admiration. Rather than ‘laugh’ behind the buyer’s back they acted independently to expose the fraud and set things right. Nice to know there are such people out there…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell.;
I want to thank you for being a part, the good part, of this WACA Forum. Congrats, you’ve now been Baptised into the club of “Yours ain’t worth spit, mine’s (same piece, same condition) worth three times what I’m asking”. That aside, I’ve never been big on Winchester Model 70 rifles, although in the past I’ve owned two of them. One a Pre-64 in 270 caliber, the other a Post-64 in 7mm Remington Magnum cal. I also owned a Model 54 in 30-06. All sold at auction a few years back. My favorite bolt action rifles for shooting are Pre-War Mauser Sporters. I own two of these, both in 8×57 caliber. (.318) I know that both the Model 54 and early Model 70’s were based on the Mauser 98 Action. I just prefer the early Mauser in general to the Winchester product. I also have a converted 1895 Military Mauser in 7x57mm. I’ll probably be Excomunicated from WACA for liking Mausers rather than the bolt action Winchester products. What can I do? Esta la vida! (Thats Life!) You already know my passion for the Winchester 1873’s, of which I still own a few, my 1876 Short Rifle and last but certainly not least, my 1866 Carbine. The most “Labor Intensive” (time spent in research) firearm I’ve ever owned. To change the subject, I always felt the more we educate ourselves, become our own EXPERTS in our collecting field, the less we’ll be able to get screwed by these Clowns. I’ve always maintained, trust no EXPERT completely. listen to what they’re preaching, then go out and find the answers for yourself. So when they offer .50 cents for your Pre-War 7x57mm, Deluxe High Grade Model 70, they, telling you it’s a fake or worked on, knowing full well it probably wasn’t, or try to sell you that “Dolled Up 1886, all Original and never touched by human hands” for twice its worth, well, you don’t need me to tell you what to answer in reply. In any case, let me get off my “Soap Box” and just say “Thanks for being aboard”
Apache, (Ya Ta Hey Kola)
Apache-
Not wanting to sound too solicitous, but I have learned a lot from following this forum daily. Do it to de-stress after my usual ‘work day’…
There are many WACA members (you, 1873man, 25-20, 1892takedown, Seewin, Big Larry, vicvanb, to name a few), who are consistently willing to share their accumulated knowledge (based on hard earned experience). Those who approach the subject as ‘scholarship’, i.e. knowledge gained is valuable only if passed along, are those who IMHO make this forum worthwhile.
The (thankfully relatively few) others… Well as I said above it take all kinds… If one wants to keep their ‘secrets’ to themselves, that’s fine. Their knowledge will die with them… Just don’t ‘diss’ someone so you can feel good about yourself. Betrays a lack of ego-strength. (Freudian psycho-babble, I know…)
Your research on your Model 1866 is astounding BTW… How many other pieces of true historical significance are out there (missing the provenance that diligent research and a bit of luck/persistence might uncover)? Buried amongst the ‘fakes’… Will yours be the last authentic relic to be ‘recovered’? I fear so…
Best…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
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