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Another M70 trivia question for the experts…
Has anyone seen an authentic pre-64 M70 Super Grade floor plate that has straight rather than ‘tear drop’ dashes before and after ‘SUPER GRADE’? Like the post-64 (or “post-63” in deference to Bert H.) Super Grade?
As illustrated below (these three photos are from Rock Island Auctions photo database) the typical ‘early’ roll mark (e.g. S/N 49280 LEFT) has the Helvetica ‘G’ (with tail) and out of proportion/misaligned ‘P’ and ‘A’. The typical ‘later’ roll mark (e.g. S/N 369688 CENTER) has a Universe ‘G’ (sans serif) and it’s own little peculiarities with alignment. The post-64 roll mark (e.g. S/N 769974 RIGHT) again has the ‘G’ in a serif font, and straight line instead of ‘tear drop’ dashes.
The rifle I’m looking at is S/N 412140, a relatively late (1957) Super Grade 220 Swift (BELOW). To me the rifle appears correct in every respect: Monte Carlo stock with correct cheek piece, metal grip cap, extent and quality of checkering, correct Redfield 255 front sight and jeweled bolt/extractor/collar/magazine follower. Judging from the action screws it does not ever appear to have ever been apart. The floor plate stamping, however, more closely resembles the post-64 version than the pre-64 (sorry my camera equipment is not quite as good as RIAs).
Now I know there were several minor variations in the Super Grade floor plates, tear drops that point inwards, etc. I also know that dogma has it that all pre-64 floor plates have tear drop dashes. Odd thing about this floor plate (if it is a post-64 part), is the way the hinge if flattened (like the pre-64), not left round (like the post-64). So I’m confused… The floor plate is shaped like a pre-64 but marked like a post-64.
Anyone out there know either of authentic pre-64 Super Grades like this? Or alternatively whether any of the past floor plate “forgers” were known to apply markings with straight dashes to real pre-64 floor plates? This gun has been in our position quite a while, so it wasn’t faked yesterday. In fact, it doesn’t look faked at all, but that floor plate definitely contradicts “the book”.
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Sounds like you’ve done your homework including likely observing the wisdom on point in “The Rifleman’s Rifle” by Roger Rule. Your tech language suggests a strong parallel. If so, I doubt there’s much more to be said than as expressed there concerning the three differing “bottom cover” nomenclature styles.
Insufficient time for ‘vast’ research, I’ve just done a ‘half-vast’ 🙂 quick look at my own. Just a perusal of file photos (not ready for prime time) of my small smattering of Super Grades from 1937 or so production through the late fifties. Such confirms only the pattern of inward pointing narrowing ‘wedge’ emphasis markings for mine. Hardly a ‘scientific study’, but the best I can offer and completely consonant with ‘the book’.
My single USRA Win Super Grade of the early nineties does show the straight dash lines and a better finish than the seven hundred K SN issue in your pix.
I believe that to ‘assume’ anything other than the facts offered in the prevailing literature is an unsupported ‘step beyond’. Sadly, not just the mix n’ match stuff showing up on nice guns nowadays (some of such which has likely occurred in the simple context of repair replacements). Too often now outright fraud/forgeries in the mix!
Thanks for an interesting Thread & I await as any further unraveling occurring!
Just my take.
Thanks, Iskra.
I think you’re singing my song… And thanks for checking your SGs for “funny looking” floor plates.
I currently have 20 M70 Super Grades (so a modest sample at best). Like yours (and like “the book” says), 19 of them conform to the gospel that type I, type II and early type III SGs can have the stamp with the Helvetica ‘G’ (left above), while type II, and the majority of type III SGs can have the stamp with the Univers ‘G’ (center above). These 19 all have the ‘tear drop’ dashes pointing outwards.
Except for SN 412140, the ‘examples’ I put in the earlier post were downloaded images from RIA on-line catalogs. One of the nice things about RIA (at least I think so) is that they nearly always post a high-resolution photo of the floor plate of M70 SG rifles (real or imaginary)… A quick perusal of a half dozen of their old catalogs this PM revealed a total of 43 additional (real or imaginary) SG floor plates. Some are rather interesting… For example we have tear drops pointing inwards (S/N 127839 – a recognized variation):
Tear drops both pointing the same direction (S/N 72594:
And dashes where tear drops should be (S/N 271903 and 295782):
Which is why I thought I’d ask the membership just how many pre-64 SG floor plate variations they believe are “real”, and do so my exposing myself as the owner of a SG that has hash marks that are more like dashes that tears…
Best, Lou
P.S. This new photo upload feature is Awesome. It lets one create what I hope are “educational” illustrated posts!!!
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Have often wondered about this myself. When looking at M70’s on auction sites and just generally perusing the Web have come across a fair number of SG’s with straight dashes. As best as I can recall, all of these SG’s were later production rifles. Very interested to see where this thread goes….
Best, Lou
P.S. This new photo upload feature is Awesome. It lets one create what I hope are “educational” illustrated posts!!!
That is exactly what we set out to do when we made the decision to dump the old forum and begin this new format. Thanks for the positive endorsement!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Hi Bert-
Not wanting to derail my own post, but it does work well once you figure it out… Hope you were not troubled by the ‘post-63’ comment…
As always, when I post these queries, I’d like to know the experience of others… Maybe VicVanB and SeeWin will see this…
Best, Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
Hi Bert-
Not wanting to derail my own post, but it does work well once you figure it out… Hope you were not troubled by the ‘post-63’ comment…
As always, when I post these queries, I’d like to know the experience of others… Maybe VicVanB and SeeWin will see this…
Best, Lou
Nope… I knew you were just poking fun at my penchant desire for accurate information.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Oh… Another thought occurred to me. (I’m not very quick on the uptake).
I can’t verify this with any rifles in my possession, but didn’t the factory change the INSIDE of the M70 floor plate when they changed over from ‘pre-64’ to ‘post-63’ production? I am not sure when that change occurred, i.e. how soon after 1963? But shouldn’t it be ‘easy’ to tell a genuine ‘post-63’ floor plate from a genuine ‘pre-64’ floor plate by looking on the inside?
The inside of the floor plate of S/N 412140 has the expected ‘pre-64’ vertical milling pattern where it is machined to accept the magazine spring. So I’m thinking that the floor plate is ‘pre-64’ even if the –SUPER GRADE– marking is not.
Please set me straight. Cheers…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
OK… I’ll post one more font comparison then give it a rest. Again extracted from RIA’s photo archives:
TOP (S/N 226329) is what I expect the SUPER GRADE stamp to look like on a typical type III M70 SG. BOTTOM (S/N 769974) is the font used on the post-63 but pre-GCA 1968 SG floor plate, i.e. before the ‘G’ prefix. Besides the dashes instead of tear drops, on the post-63 marking the ‘G’ has regained it’s ‘tail’, the ‘legs’ of the ‘P’ and ‘R’ are longer, and the legs of the ‘A’ are shorter than the authentic pre-64 SG marking.
The four floor plates in the middle are from ‘SUPER GRADE’ pre-64 M70s pictured (with the exception of S/N 412140) in RIA auction catalogues. To my eye, they all have the ‘post-63’ stamp characteristics. For whatever it’s worth, S/N 408549 and 493915 are Africans.
Hypotheses:
#1 The switchover in SG stamp font occurred before the end of pre-64 M70 production, causing some number of authentic late SG rifles to have the post-63 lettering applied to a pre-64 floor plate. This is NOT discussed in either Rule’s or Whittaker’s M70 book, to my knowledge. So it would contradict dogma.
#2 It was common practice for individuals to ‘upgrade’ pre-64 rifles to SG configuration using post-63 parts (though I think you can tell the difference between a pre-64 and a post-63 floor plate other than by the stamp – can you not?).
#3 A large number of ‘fake’ SG floor plates are out there that were made using genuine pre-64 floor plates stamped with post-63 marking dies (enough that it’s pretty easy to find them without looking very hard).
The finding that two of the straight dash stamps are on pre-64 Africans (the only catalogued SG configuration 1960-1963) and that it takes more than a front sight, stock, and floor plate to ‘fake’ an African, seems to at least raise the possibility that hypothesis #1 may be correct in some cases????
Anyway, I’ll just shut up and listen.
Cheers…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis just an appreciative thanks for initiating this Thread. Not always to positively answer questions but a factual inquiry sharing/seeking/developing information. (Actually just adding a side admission. As I first replied, I’d overlooked the fact that you’d initiated the Thread. Then as I later realized… the feeling of having preached to the pope!) I do hope that you will share more of your insights/expertise in this Forum concerning the Model 70 genre! 🙂 🙂 🙂
Soon I hope to be ‘testing the photo waters’ with a ’70’ query that about requires pix.
My definite take!
Hi Iskra-
I look forward to your post. Most pre-64 Model 70 information/speculation I’ve found on the internet is ill-informed/inaccurate, which is why WACA is the best chance to get straight answers. The photo feature is very handy, since it will place the image thumbnail wherever your cursor is when you upload the file.
On the floor plate theme, here are a couple more “oddities” from James Julia photo archives, belonging to rifles that otherwise look to be bona fide:
S/N 437417 with straight dashes like S/N 412140. Is it possible that the “post-63” style of lettering began to be phased in during late pre-64 Super Grade production, circa S/N 400000????
Then there’s S/N 57766 with odd looking ‘feet’ on the ‘A’ of an otherwise more or less correct looking stamp.
NOTE that I have not been posting pics of poor-quality obviously non-original attempts at – SUPER GRADE – stamps. Only ones that look like they might be ‘real’ variations. I am interested in the experience/opinion of others.
Cheers…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
I may be off base looking at it this way, but are there examples of late production Super Grades with S/N’s greater than 400,000 that have tear drop shaped dashes on the floor plates?
Ted-
Absolutely, YES. In searching out the rare exceptions to show in this post I may have unintentionally created the impression that ‘straight line’ floor plates were the norm. That is not true. Regardless of serial number, most type 3 Super Grades I have seen have the second type stamping, e.g. S/N 369668 above. In that regard, the information in Rule’s and Whitaker’s books is correct.
What I’ve been speculating about relates to the transition that occurred between the ‘tear drop’ stamps, and the ‘straight line’ SUPER GRADE stamps. The books say that it occurred abruptly, i.e. pre-64 Supers have tear drops and post-63 Supers have dashes. Meaning that the ‘graphics’ were redesigned at the time the new model was introduced. This may very well be correct.
On the other hand, the overlap between the first type stamping, e.g. S/N 49280 above, and the second type spans a very wide range of serial numbers from shortly after WWII until well into the ’50s. Is it possible that the ‘straight line’ stamps began appearing during late ‘pre-64’ production intermixed with ‘tear drop’ stamps?
The only evidence I have found supporting the idea is that it is not difficult to find (mostly late) pre-64 Super Grade rifles pictured in major auction house catalogues with straight dash floor plates, e.g. S/N 412140 and others above. They constitute a minority of rifles, but do not seem rare. And these floor plates appear to have been stamped with the same die(s), i.e. they are not the random “home made” fake floor plates commonly seen on basement upgrades. So are these straight dash pre-64 floor plates all fake? If so I’d have to guess someone made a “non-factory production run” of them using either real factory post-63 dies or a very good approximation, and then disseminated them widely.
Certainly possible (maybe even probable). 
Just wondering what the experts out there know.
Cheers
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
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