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Hello,
Here is the rifle as original and still listed at Homestead: httphttp://homesteadfirearms.com/cart2/pid_1412.htm//homesteadfirearms.com/cart2/pid_1412.htm
And here it is as a fake at Kramer Auction: https:/https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Winchester-22-Short-Single-cal-Model-61-Rnd-Bbl/35233759/LotDetail.asp?lid=35233759www.proxibid.com/aspr/Winchester-22-Short-Single-cal-Model-61-Rnd-Bbl/35233759/LotDetail.asp?lid=35233759
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
Hello,Here is the rifle as original and still listed at Homestead: httphttp://homesteadfirearms.com/cart2/pid_1412.htm//homesteadfirearms.com/cart2/pid_1412.htm
And here it is as a fake at Kramer Auction: https:/https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Winchester-22-Short-Single-cal-Model-61-Rnd-Bbl/35233759/LotDetail.asp?lid=35233759www.proxibid.com/aspr/Winchester-22-Short-Single-cal-Model-61-Rnd-Bbl/35233759/LotDetail.asp?lid=35233759
Michael
Holy Moley. Nice job though. Big Larry
Unfortunately, there is too much of this illicit behavior occurring within the Winchester community. In addition to the Model 61s and Model 1892/92s that Michael has documented as being altered, I have found more than just a few Model 64s and Model 71s that have been “upgraded” in recent years. The Model 70 has long been a target for “upgrades” as well. Unfortunately, we all have to be extra careful these days when buying what appears to be a “desirable” Winchester. Caveat Emptor!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
Offline
Wood looks different, could be the lighting but the butt stock in the Homestead pics has more contrast.
There is the slim chance that its a case of repeated serial number. It did happen we have seen it and even had it noted in records.
One can dream can’t one?
Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles
“There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”
Teddy Roosevelt
November 7, 2015
Offline
I wondered about that but the chance of both of them being on the market at almost the same time seems very remote. It doesn’t look like the same rifle to me so I guess it’s possible.
I see 2 different rifles with the same serial number. The 22 short rifle has a P in oval replacement barrel and from internet pictures the markings look raised up and original. The serial numbers need a side by side comparison to determine originality.
CJS57 said
I see 2 different rifles with the same serial number. The 22 short rifle has a P in oval replacement barrel and from internet pictures the markings look raised up and original. The serial numbers need a side by side comparison to determine originality.
Look at these two images of the receiver top and to the left side of the W/P proof stamp on it. Both photos show a small linear mark to the left of the receiver proof. The devil is in the details!! It is the same rifle with two different barrels on it.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Take a look at the left side of the butt stock. They are 2 different ones so, they must have been switched also.
I just received this from Kramer Auction:
Thanks for the heads up, we realized the Bbl. was replaced because of the proof mark, just assumed it was done at the factory but looks like not. Thanks for the info you found.
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
CJS57 said
I see 2 different rifles with the same serial number. The 22 short rifle has a P in oval replacement barrel and from internet pictures the markings look raised up and original. The serial numbers need a side by side comparison to determine originality.Look at these two images of the receiver top and to the left side of the W/P proof stamp on it. Both photos show a small linear mark to the left of the receiver proof. The devil is in the details!! It is the same rifle with two different barrels on it.
Michael
In the second photo, it looks like the barrel proof-mark is the P with a circle–evidence of a mail-order barrel.
Don
November 7, 2015
Offline
Anyone have a contact at Homestead?
TXGunNut said
Anyone have a contact at Homestead?
You can find all these options on their web site:
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
CJS57 said
twobit, I am on your side now! Redone gun!
Did you talk with Charles at Homestead?
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
Offline
twobit said
You can find all these options on their web site:
I buy a little at Homestead, mostly parts. I didn’t figure they would give buyer info to anyone that asked for it.
And here is a bit of an update on this rifle. I received an email form a guy who saw the gun at an auction and noticed the “Oval/P” proof mark and immediately lost interest. But someone at the auction apparently did not see it and it sold for $4000!! Ouch! https://www.proxibid.com/Winchester-Model-61-22-short/lotInformation/66762764
Be careful out there!!!
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Bert H. said
Unfortunately, there is too much of this illicit behavior occurring within the Winchester community. In addition to the Model 61s and Model 1892/92s that Michael has documented as being altered, I have found more than just a few Model 64s and Model 71s that have been “upgraded” in recent years. The Model 70 has long been a target for “upgrades” as well. Unfortunately, we all have to be extra careful these days when buying what appears to be a “desirable” Winchester. Caveat Emptor!
Bert
The bad guns do seem to be more prevalent and that is certainly caused by the increased value of collectible Winchesters and the unscrupulous among us that want to make a quick buck. As those of you that follow the Forum know, just this week Deerhunter nearly purchased a Model 94 that was not right and was able to cancel the sale after problems with the gun were identified. It is too bad that every day collectors are tucking guns away that they think are correct but they are not. Recently I was talking to a young WACA member who told me of his near purchase of a Model 64 in deluxe configuration. He thought the gun looked right and was about to pull the trigger when he found out the gun had sold a couple of years back when it was a standard grade gun! Just add some checkered wood to a rare caliber gun and make some easy money. If it was not for the surveys being conducted by WACA members on many models, lots of the discrepancies would never be identified. So, hats off to the guys that are doing the surveys and calling attention to problems when identified.
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