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The 1876 Centennial Exposition was a very big deal at the time; keeping in mind that it was the first “Official “ World’s Fair, and lasted 6 months, with an estimated 10 million visitors; so it was not a small event. My guess is that Winchester had hundreds…if not thousands of rifles display at the fair, from standard models to highly engraved.
Generally the factory letters will state “shipped to Centennial Exposition” Philadelphia, PA or Shipped to Paris Exposition etc. Have any of the critics here looked at the factory letter?
As for the private sale.. Hey who can blame them with a 15% buyers premium and 7-10% sellers fee you would be dumb not to sell privately.
I don’t recall a "Factory Letter" being mentioned by anyone describing this Winchester. Does anyone out in "Never, Never Land" know the serial number of this Winchester? If so it’s no problem to have the Winchester Books checked out I would imagine. I’m quite sure it will be fully authenticated as having been both ordered and engraved for the 1876 Centenial. Don’t you agree? 
The rifle sold for $ 1 M+, is there really any doubt that the rifle letters? What they were too cheap to spend the $35 on a factory letter? My guess is that that rifle letters, and was authenticated by more than one expert who was insured.
I guess you’re correct in your assumption. You guess you’re correct in your assumption. It certainly makes sense. However we’re both guessing. Is there anyone that knows the serial number of this rifle? Never take anything for granted and don’t believe the "Experts". Find out for yourself. 
Burt H;
As far as this engraved rifle costing $1,000,000+ and thus making it "Original" because no one would spend that much without 100% proof, consider this. How many counterfeit works of "Fine Art" were sold for how many millions of dollars to Expert Art Collectors only to find out at a later date that the "World Acclaimed Experts" authenticating these works were wrong. This I think should kill that line of thought as to the item being too expensive to be questionable. To my eye this Winchester does seem to be (from an indistinct magazine photo) the work and pattern style of Gustav Younge Sr. As I said before, the pattern is very simular to the Smith & Wesson New Model 3 he engraved for the 1893 Exposition. As to which was created first, without Winchester documentation I have no answer for. My other thought on this Winchester was that it was an "Out of Shop" privately contracted firearm. We’ll in all likelyhood never find out the serial number, and thus be unable to check the Winchester records as to whether it was ordered from Winchester (To be engraved by Younge) or whomever. I would imagine if it was indeed engraved by G.Y. Sr. it would in any case be quite a valuable work of "Firearms Art". 😈
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Apache,
You appear to be spoiling for someone else to argue with… and I am not going to be that person.
However, since you specifically (and rudely) called me out, I will make this one final statement… "Fine Art" can not be lettered (authenticated) like an old Winchester rifle can. In that regard, the two objects can not be compared in the same manner. So No, I personally do not believe that it
should kill that line of thought as to the item being too expensive to be questionable
.
Like Mike Hunter (and most likely several others who frequent this website), I personally do not believe that anyone (especially a deep pocket collector) in this day and age that is willing to pay $1M for a Winchester would do so without having it lettered/authenticated.
That is the End of my discussion on this topic.
Bert (please note the correct spelling of my name).
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
BERT; (not Burt)
The comments made by me were certainly not ment to "insult" you. Although I might be mistaken, I thought this Winchester Sight was meant to inform ALL Winchester Collectors as to what or what not may be out there. I must be mistaken. Again, I was NOT "calling you out" personally, but just giving "Food for thought". I personally could not care one way or the other about this Winchester, as it doesn’t affect me. Obviously as an Expert in these matters you certainly would know more than I. Hence I’ll degress from making comment on these subjects as I do not wish to insult anyone.
People are just assuming that this gun went for that money. I personally think this could very well be a marketing ploy for this auction house. There is just to much funny business going on in the gun collecting world today. People posting pictures of guns for sale that they don’t even own. Others taking blurry pictures and lying about condition. There is a gun on a well known web site now, being sold by a well known dealer. It is supposed to be a factory Pigeon Grade Model 12, in the box, engraved by Nick Kusmit, with factory papers. They even ssay in the ad that the serial no. is in Riffles book showing it was engraved by Nick. The problem here is that the gun was not done by Nick. Neither was the B carving on this gun done in the factory.. Therefore someone had to remove the serial no., replace it and then fake some factory papers. Oh the lengths people will go! Nevermind the supposed Model 12, 410 that just sold for over $16,000. The person who bought that obviously didn’t know it was a fake. People throw large amounts of money away all the time on phonies. I, unfortunately, get to break the news to people alot. I’ve seen so much BS that I don’t believe much of anything when it comes to alot of these auction houses and many dealers. Alot of these guys don’t know any better themselves but they don’t do much to check things out and they are quick to take your money.
Both you and I go back in this business a long time. We first met years ago up at one of the WACA Portland shows in the restaurant. You were having a snack I think with your Dad. We’ve both been in the same end of this business, you being very well known, I, well known to a very select clientele. I dare say I’ve heard more BS from more "World Re-known Experts" than one can shake a stick at. Over the years I’ve heard of more "One of One Thousand’s", more "High End" Parkers, more Colt Walker Pistols, all "Original" of coarse, than were ever produced. I’ve been retired from the business for a few years now, but do agree that it’s all changed, and not for the better. When I’m told how the "Experts" say "of coarse it’s the real thing", I must admit I laugh to myself. I will continue to tell all that will listen in the Collecting field this, "Believe no one. The Experts might have an special interest in what they do or don’t tell you. Do the hard work in research yourself. Find out for yourself, then buy!" You still can go wrong, but at least you’ll have no one to blame but yourself.
Makes sense to me! By the way, you’ve got a great memory. That was some time ago. Not a very high attendance show but a very nice one.
I hate to bring a dead horse back to life with this topic/post but I read something that perked my interest the other evening when re-reading (couldnt get it right the first time) Herbert Houze’s book The Winchester Model 1876 Centennial Rifle that made me recall this topic (and the mention of the 1873 that sold through Cowans for 1M+ in the recent auction house post).
First off, I have no opinion of the 1873 sold privately by Cowans, its nice, I couldnt afford it, and if we knew if it lettered, all the better–such is life.
With that said, in Houze’s book on page 71 it states, regarding the Winchester Repeating Arms Company Centennial Expo Exhibit (as described in a “souvenir book published to document the Centennial Expo”). It reads:
“The Winchester Repeating Arms Company…had a rich and extensive display of weapons, consisting of magazine rifles, field, sporting, and target models, there being more than one hundred specimens in the collection. The cases containing them were upright, forming three sides of a square, with projecting counter cases and in the center, an upright, octagonal case…In one of the counter cases was a rifle with barrel and magazine sawed in longitudinal section. Another case contained a rifle exquisitely inlaid in gold steel on blued steel, the floor of the case being a mirror, reflecting the reverse side, and thus exhibiting the whole piece. The exhibit included a total of nearly two hundred guns, representing fifty different styles”.
There is no way to prove or disprove this “was” the rifle described, nor am I saying as much. However, is it a coincidence that such a rifle was described then, and one exists today?
Again, I have no pony in the race, just fodder for the old noggin.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
1892takedown;
I remember reading about the rifle you’re describing in your thread. It wasn’t the 1873 that is pictured in magazine ad. First this 1873 rifle was in all likelyhood engraved by Gustuv Younge, possibly after 1876. It is the same type and style on the frame of engraving and “Damasceaning” (please forgive my spelling) using Gold Leaf, but NOT gold inlaying, the Gold Inlay work is on the barrel, that he did on a Smith & Wesson for the 1893 exposition. This S&W was considered to be his finast work.This type of work by him never having been seen before. If you compare the photographs of both the Smith & Wesson New Model #3 that was displayed at the 1893 Expo. and the 1873 Winchester of the “1876 Centennial Expo.”, you will notice the engraving is vertually the same style, and in all likelyhood done by G.Y.. However, it’s my opinion, and only an opinion, ( I know, we all have one!) that this Winchester was engraved and damasceaned for a Private Customer after he saw the S&W display in the 1893 Expo., not in the Exposition of 1876. It was not done by any of the Ulrich’s, then employed by Winchester at that time. Actually, no matter, this Winchester is truly a masterpeice, done by a great Master. It was after all, Younge that was the teacher of the Ulrich’s. Unlike the Ulrich family, Gustuv Younge was not a “Factory Engraver” in the employ of Winchester at any time. He did have an Engraving Shop, renting space first at Colt Firearms and later at Smith & Wesson, but never at Winchester. It is thought however that he may have done a few “private” engraving jobs on Winchester firearms at the behest of the Winchester Company, this for “Special” Winchester customers.
Apache,
Maverick said
Some times when a gun of this magnitude surfaces gives me caution to its validity. Back in the 80s a 1 of 1000 surfaced that had been “locked away” for 40 years. And for another 20 years it was that to be genuine until it was proven otherwise. But then again this could be the exception.
Sincerely,
Maverick
Is that the one that the late John Sheffield “discovered” near Roanoke, Virginia?
Thank you Apache for your insight and comments. Certainly interesting stuff.
Chris
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
WallyB. and All;
Thanks for the compliment on my research habits. If you look back over the years you’ll notice that I ALWAYS tell people, “DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!! DO NOT LISTEN TO THE SO CALLED “EXPERTS”, BUT BECOME YOUR OWN EXPERT”!! In this way if you make a mistake on a purchase 1) you’ll have no one to blame but yourself, and perhaps not make the same mistake again. 2) If you score a “Homerun” you’ll be able to look in the mirror and say “Good Job, Well Done”. I’ve, over the past years have scored many more “Homeruns” than “Strikeouts” by doing my own research. This sometimes against very heavy “Expert” naysayers advise. As for my experience and feelings as far as most of the ”Experts” are concerned, well it wouldn’t be nice to use that kind of language on this Web Sight. Once more, BECOME YOUR OWN EXPERT!!!!! You won’t be sorry for the work and time you’ll have invested.
Apache, Larry N.
Jim Morris said
Is that the one that the late John Sheffield “discovered” near Roanoke, Virginia?
I don’t know. I would to need to know more about the rifle your referring to?
Also.
I just noticed something interesting and I guess it hits pretty spot on with what Larry was saying about so called experts.
The 1 of 1000 that R.L. Wilson states that “it was probably made as a display piece for the 1876 Philadelphia Centennial Exposition.”
That is this rifle he is referring to in his book.
http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/8347/9753135_8.jpg?v=8CD1F46AD822FB0
http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/8347/9753135_6.jpg?v=8CD1F46AD822FB0
I just noticed that the Warehouse dates for this rifle are In Date: Nov. 14, 1876 and Out Date: Nov. 21, 1876.
The Centennial Exhibition was held from May 10th – November 10th, 1876. So I doubt this rifle would have been made as a display piece for the Exposition. I do wonder if the original buyer was at the Exposition and ordered it there. Also I do wonder about the Centennial inscription on the dust cover, as how it came about being so. As I assume it is very unique to this rifle.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Something that has crossed my mind is that a counterfeiter could build rifles to match factory letters and hope that the original rifle does not surface until after he has sold it. The expense involved would rule out ordinary rifles, but if a disreputable person found a factory letter that described a deluxe special order rifle, he might be tempted. Still, the cost of doing a good job on it vs. the risk and the net profit would make this an ‘iffy’ proposition.
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