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1 of 1000, Is It For Real or Not?
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May 21, 2015 - 12:08 am
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Larry,

The Colt guy I am thinking about passed around 10 years ago.

I was in the Jaguar service and restoration business for 25 years. XK 140’s and E-Types are my favorites. The older I get, the E-Type doors keep getting smaller.  Vintage Jags were the (cat’s ass) in their day. The British will recreate anything if you have the bucks.

Cheers

Walter Blake

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May 21, 2015 - 10:39 pm
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Wally B.;

    The Gentleman I’m thinking about is to the best of my knowledge still alive and kicking.

    I know this hasn’t anything to do with Winchesters, but in 1961 I had a friend that took me for a ride in his 1951 or ’52 XK-120 FHC. After that I was hooked. I also, very much liked the series 1 E-type coupe. Couldn’t afford one back then, can’t now. My first car unknowst to me at the time, the most exotic car I’ve ever owned, was a 1959 Moretti. These cars were “Hand Made” Fiat based “Hot Rods”, much like the Fiat Abarth Double-Bubble’s. With its SOC engine I could bury the tachometer at over 8K rpm without the valves floating. Amazing. My wife has been bugging me lately to sell my 1977 Corvette and buy an ’06-’07 XK-8 Coupe. (can afford this) Any thoughts on this? I’ve heard all the things about the “Valve Timing Belts”, but the XK-8’s still a beautiful machine, in spite of its problems. I’ve owned and driven (self maintained) my Vette for over 24 years now. When I bought it the prievious owner had put a “Full Race, modified LT-1” engine in it. She couldn’t be driven on the street. Wouldn’t idle under 1500 rpm, I de-tuned it somewhat (changed the camshaft to a 350/350, changed the Edelbrock “High Rise”, and the “Holly 750” to a normal Vette intake and a Quadrajet) and have been driving it this way ever since. She’s never let me down.

     Sorry folks for straying from the subject of Winchesters. CryEmbarassed

Apache (Larry N.)CoolSmileSmile

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May 22, 2015 - 2:17 am
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Larry,

It is nice to stray from Winchester details every now and then. LeRoy stated this forum should be fun, and I agree. It is interesting what other collectors are doing.

Wow! Your first car was a Moretti, nobody new what it was then or now. There can’t be many left. You had to “wind it up” to make it go. My first car was a MGA that I paid $160 for. I did not know that you had to put oil in it. Italian cars are neat.My most fun car is a ’74 Alfa GTV that I have owned almost 40 years.

The newer jags are nice cars. The more a car cost, the more it takes to maintain. The XK8 is a pretty car. Stay away from ’98- 03 V8’s as they had engine problems (cylinder wall coatings). I understand they had plastic timing chain issues on all. I have been away from  new jags for some time. The V8 engine is basically a Mustang engine. A good Ford tech can take care of the motor.

I have commend you on your 1866 carbine research. I like real Indian used Winchesters.

Walter

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May 22, 2015 - 3:11 am
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Wally;

    In those days most Americans knew nothing about adding oil to SU’s. Probably today most still don’t.  And they wonder why the car doesn’t run well. My second car, as I also always liked Italian cars, was a 1961 Alfa Romeo, 1300cc Spyder. White exterior, Red interior. What I liked most about my Moretti though, was how the heater worked GREAT in the SUMMER, but never  worked in WINTER. Typical of those early years.

     My research into my 1866 Winchester Carbine lasted off and on for just over 14 years. What an education that has been. As far as the so called “Experts” I’ve run into over the 14 years of research work are concerned, you can tell that my opinion of most of todays “Experts” is about the same as many of todays Representitives in Congress. Not held in very high esteam. Many seem to want to get paid, but without doing the grunt work to earn it. Bad subject for me. Anyway Wally I’m glad you enjoyed the article. My Winchester 1866 was given on loan to, and has been on display in the NRA’s Museum system since 2010. This so that any interested Collector or Historian can see it up close. Much better to display it for all to see and ponder than it being hidden in the dark of my vault.

Apache (Larry N.)SmileSmileSmileSmileSmile

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May 26, 2015 - 7:24 am
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Gentlemen,

Excellent thread….

I have seen quite a few genuine and fake 1-1000s (most of them are documented in my photo database), and I believe all of them I have examined have had assembly numbers on the back of the sideplates; however, I have also seen non-1 of 1000s with them too.

In MHO, and as mentioned in this thread, the best way to authenticate a 1-1000 is a close inspection of the lower tang & serial number; however, I have found that the barrel inscription is very telling.  The fakers can never seem to get this right, no matter how skilled they are.  I’m not saying that’s it’s impossible to fake an inscription; but it’s very difficult to get all of the elements right on a fake INCLUDING a genuine-looking barrel inscription.  So the bottom line is, first look at the inscription, and if it does not look right, then do not pass go; do not collect $200!

Rob Kassab

Director & Executive Editor

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1895Book.com

RareWinchesters.com

To greatly enhance your collecting experience, join WACA. It's only $35 / year (eMembership), and you'll be able to directly upload photos on the forum, receive the e-version of our quarterly magazine and have full online access to our magazine archive database, along with many other member benefits such as 15 additional record searches for Cody Firearms Museum members.  It’s easy to join at http://winchestercollector.org/register/.

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May 26, 2015 - 10:44 pm
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Rob;

     Three questions. 1)The 1 of 1000 rifles that you’ve seen without these “assembly numbers”, how in fact did you authenticate them? 2) When dealing with a firearm with a possible retail price of between, let’s say $250,000.00 up to $450,000.00+, don’t you think it’s worth while to have an “undectable” 1 of 1000 rifle made up for less than $50 to $75 thousand dollars? Remember, we’re not dealing with a “Basement Gunsmith” here. You’re a good “Businessman”, what do you think? Please Rob, one more question. 3) Are the assembly numbers you’ve found on the side plates and other stamped parts a match to the other assembly numbers found on the Winchester 1 of 1000’s you’ve seen with these numbers? I would imagine that they would have to be, or at least a part of the other 3 or 4 didget assembly numbers, or perhaps at least a few didgits of the serial numbers on the rifles. Otherwise how would the Assemblers be able to keep track of all these parts during the manufacturing prossess? Your insite on these questions would be most helpfull to me, a very confused Collector. Apache (LarryN.)ConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfused

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May 27, 2015 - 3:03 am
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Larry, I have listed your three questions and have followed each with my answer in italics:

Q – The 1 of 1000 rifles that you’ve seen without these “assembly numbers”, how in fact did you authenticate them?

A – Please reread my text above as I did not state that I ever saw one without the inside assembly numbers.  What I did say is that I have seen (as Mike Hunter has) other model 1873s also with assembly numbers.

Q – When dealing with a firearm with a possible retail price of between, let’s say $250,000.00 up to $450,000.00+, don’t you think it’s worthwhile to have an “undetectable” 1 of 1000 rifle made up for less than $50 to $75 thousand dollars?  Remember, we’re not dealing with a “Basement Gunsmith” here.  You’re a good “Businessman”, what do you think?

 A – As I mentioned above, I have found that the barrel inscription is very telling.  The fakers can never seem to get this right, no matter how skilled they are.  I’m not saying that’s it’s impossible to fake an inscription; but it’s very difficult to get all of the elements right on a faked gun INCLUDING a genuine-looking barrel inscription.  And after 35 years of collecting, mentored by George Madis, and examining lots and lots of Winchesters, you just get a “six-sense” for detecting when something is just not right….

Q – Are the assembly numbers you’ve found on the side plates and other stamped parts a match to the other assembly numbers found on the Winchester 1 of 1000’s you’ve seen with these numbers?  I would imagine that they would have to be, or at least a part of the other 3 or 4 digit assembly numbers, or perhaps at least a few digits of the serial numbers on the rifles.  Otherwise, how would the Assemblers be able to keep track of all these parts during the manufacturing processes?

A – The assembly numbers I have found do not match other components of the same gun, nor are they generally the same number from gun to gun.

Rob Kassab

Director & Executive Editor

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1895Book.com

RareWinchesters.com

To greatly enhance your collecting experience, join WACA. It's only $35 / year (eMembership), and you'll be able to directly upload photos on the forum, receive the e-version of our quarterly magazine and have full online access to our magazine archive database, along with many other member benefits such as 15 additional record searches for Cody Firearms Museum members.  It’s easy to join at http://winchestercollector.org/register/.

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June 5, 2015 - 12:19 am
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Rob;

     Thank you for the time that you spent speaking with me over the phone about my and other 1 of 1000 Winchester rifles. Also thank you for answering the 3 questions I posed to you on this thread. I believe it is in the interest of anyone, be it Collector or Investor that might be contemplating the purchase of one of these most collectable and expensive of Winchester’s rifles to gather as much true information, the key word being TRUE, spelled “CORRECT”, information that might exist. After all, knowledge is worth its weight in gold when it comes to collecting anything, especially Antique Winchesters. I, like you have also seen these “Assembly Numbers” on the Side Plates of some Winchester 1873’s and on a few 1976’s, however unlike the Winchester 1 of 100 or 1 of 1000 models, the numbers did have a relationship to other numbers on these firearms. They, the non-Winchester 1 of 1000 or 1 of 100’s I saw had numbers that were part of either the Assembly numbers located on various parts of the same rifle or a few didgits of the Serial number. As you point out in your answer to my last question “The Assembly numbers I have found Do Not Match other components of the same gun, nor are they generally the same number from gun to gun”. This, as on my rifle along with some other different stampings was what G. M. pointed out to me when he examined my Winchester.

      As far as having a “Feeling” that the inscription is “Correct”, thus making it a Genuine Winchester 1 of 100 or 1000, and knowing that NO HAND ENGRAVING IS EXACTLY THE SAME, even if done by the same engraver, this “Feeling” would make me a little nervous. If I’m going to drop several hundred thousands of dollars on an item, I, along with, and I would assume most people prepared to spend this hefty amount on a Collectable, be it a Winchester 1 of 1000 or any other item, would need more than, a sixth sense that it feels right inorder to feel comfortable in its purchase. That is why I wish we the Collectors of these fine weapons had a diffinetive way of actually knowing it is in fact the “RealThing”. Thank you again, Apache.ConfusedConfusedSmile

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December 30, 2016 - 9:21 am
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The ones that say fakes can be made to fool experts are correct. Anything can be faked by an expert forger. Bonds can be forged and faked even Super Bills aka 99.9% authentic $100 Bills. Next for those wondering it is true that some replicas or reproductions can go for high figures even if they aren’t the original. This is the case with many historical items. There is a difference between a replica and reproduction though and that makes the difference. That all said there is nothing like the genuine article.

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December 30, 2016 - 9:27 am
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Oh btw you can find 150 year old wood. Also metals can be carbon dated. I would assume if anyone could tell you the secrets and authenticate the 1 in a thousand it would be Winchester. 

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January 2, 2017 - 2:44 am
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I think this is why forgers would be interested in old steel or “pre-war” steel to be exact. From Wikipedia:

 

“Low-background steel is any steel produced prior to the detonation of the first atomic bombs in the 1940s and 1950s. With the Trinity test and the Atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, and then subsequent nuclear weapons testing during the early years of the Cold War, background radiation levels increased across the world. Modern steel is contaminated with radionuclides because its production used atmospheric air. Low background steel is so called because it does not suffer from such nuclear contamination. This steel is used in devices that require the highest sensitivity for detecting radionuclides.

The primary source of low-background steel is ships that have been under water since before the Trinity test, most famously the scuttled German WWI battleships in Scapa Flow.”

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January 2, 2017 - 4:34 am
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“Low background steel”

Fascinating reading!  Thanks for the info, this is applicable to many of my interests and hobbies.

Best Regards,

WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

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June 4, 2019 - 4:18 am
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Hi fellow collectors

i have just stumbled across a possible 1of 1000 in australia, (pics attached) unlike the ones I have studied in the books the barrel engraving looks different to the standard factory font. 

Just wondering if you guys think that this could be a genuine gun, the story goes that this gun was brought over by an English gentleman in 1910 and has been in the current collection since the 1960’s

67FEA3D3-9291-4E28-9A8E-C0871328F325.jpegImage Enlarger9A2C640F-A5D9-47E2-A904-9ACC80A899EC.jpegImage Enlarger56677705-BAAB-4E32-8246-E3A0C780D554.jpegImage EnlargerA8EA8154-A4DE-4E32-B581-0DFC03F81A54.jpegImage EnlargerD704F75B-9694-4278-8CEF-426819E9F956.jpegImage Enlarger

Regards, Chris

 

Email: [email protected]

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June 4, 2019 - 4:56 am
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Have you lettered it? I doubt if it will letter as a 1 of 1000 since the records have been search for all of them. I have checked my survey and its not listed. Also the style of engraving is totally wrong and its upside down on the barrel. All one of one thousands and other barrel inscriptions were usually placed so it was read from the left side of the gun.  Most  of them had other special features, like checkering, fancy wood or case coloring. Its worth a records check anyway.

Bob

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June 4, 2019 - 1:09 pm
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Christopher Goscomb said
Hi fellow collectors

i have just stumbled across a possible 1of 1000 in australia, (pics attached) unlike the ones I have studied in the books the barrel engraving looks different to the standard factory font. 

Just wondering if you guys think that this could be a genuine gun, the story goes that this gun was brought over by an English gentleman in 1910 and has been in the current collection since the 1960’s

67FEA3D3-9291-4E28-9A8E-C0871328F325.jpegImage Enlarger9A2C640F-A5D9-47E2-A904-9ACC80A899EC.jpegImage Enlarger56677705-BAAB-4E32-8246-E3A0C780D554.jpegImage EnlargerA8EA8154-A4DE-4E32-B581-0DFC03F81A54.jpegImage EnlargerD704F75B-9694-4278-8CEF-426819E9F956.jpegImage Enlarger  

After all the token caveats about me not being an expert, etc. I will say that the engraving does not appear high quality.  It lacks the grace and consistent, smooth flow of a master engraver.  Also, the roughness in the bottom of the strokes cannot, in my opinion, be attributed to pitting.  It looks like a choppy, stuttering grave.  My two cents.

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June 4, 2019 - 1:58 pm
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The engraving was machine cut. If you look at the ends of the cuts it has a perfect radius. only a spinning cutter could make that.

Bob

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June 4, 2019 - 4:09 pm
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Gents, the engraving is a dead-giveaway that the gun is not correct.  Plus the late serial number.

Rob Kassab

Director & Executive Editor

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To greatly enhance your collecting experience, join WACA. It's only $35 / year (eMembership), and you'll be able to directly upload photos on the forum, receive the e-version of our quarterly magazine and have full online access to our magazine archive database, along with many other member benefits such as 15 additional record searches for Cody Firearms Museum members.  It’s easy to join at http://winchestercollector.org/register/.

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June 4, 2019 - 6:16 pm
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Looks like a real “fake” to me!

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June 4, 2019 - 8:00 pm
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Thanks gents for your feedback, my suspicions were true I guess as it just didn’t look right however the engraving was done a long time ago because it’s been in the current collection for a long time.  I did get a serial search done it it come back this morning indicating a half mag 44, plain trigger round bbl rifle, I don’t know how the owner will react if I tell him but at least I know if it ever come onto the market to then let others know.

It’s a shame because we don’t have 1of 100 or 1000 guns left in Australia as the last one here was sold though rock island 4 years ago. That gun was also in a collection for 50 years in Australia but the story goes there was a duplicate (same serial) sold in America for 300k years ago that’s why rock island flew to Australia to confirm this was the real one. Some poor bugger in America has a dear wall hanger !!!!

just a footnote if you know of any 1 of 1000 guns available for private sale in the USA please let me know as I would like to have a “real one” here again. 

Regards, Chris

 

Email: [email protected]

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June 4, 2019 - 10:29 pm
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Looks like it was done using an electric engraver pen! 

Let me guess, they will make a good deal on it?

Maverick

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