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I recently acquired a Pre-64 Winchester model 70 that seems to have a unique history. It left the factory as a .243 Winchester in a heavy barrel contour but sometime early in its life it was re-bored and rifled to .25 caliber and chambered in 25-06 Improved (Ackley). I was able to caste the chamber and bore today, confirming a .257 bore, 25-06 Ackley Improved chamber, and measured the twist rate twice at 1 turn in 12″. The barrel is stamped 26.06 IMP directly after the factory .243 Winchester marking and underneath the barrel in the same stamp font is the gunsmiths mark/stamp of 25 VP 12. The 25 stands for .25 caliber, the 12 for the twist rate, and I am assuming VP is the gunsmith who performed the work. Now I am just trying to figure out who VP is, are any of you familiar with this gunsmiths markings? The rifle also has a Canjar 70-1 trigger and Fajen stock. I purchased the rifle in NY from a man who had just recently acquired it himself locally, if the region may be of some assistance. So just trying to piece together the history of this great rifle and would appreciate any help.
On a separate forum someone suggested VP stood for Velocity Proof, where the factory proof tested the barrel with a charge twice the normal charge and stamped it as such. This is possible but the VP stamping I don’t believe is a factory stamping and I am not aware of any gunsmiths that would have re-proofed a barrel after what was a common gunsmith job the mid-century re-boring and rifling a factory barrel. But I do know many gunsmiths stamp/mark their work on the larger jobs which this would certainly classify as. So that is what I and a few others are leaning towards but could certainly be wrong. Any information is greatly appreciated.
The “VP” stamp has been interpreted to mean “viewed proved” when applied by W., but if the mark was placed there by the gunsmith, who knows.
Clarence,
Actually, it is my understanding that the “VP” in an oval stamp is “Violent Proof”
The “VP” stamp on the subject Model 70 rifle is not related to the “VP” stamp used by Winchester.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
John-
Bert is right, of course. The factory ‘oval VP’ stamp rarely turns up on M70 barrels, and then only ones with very early manufacture dates (M70 barrels made from M54 barrel blanks):
From what Bert has explained to me previously, the VP process was used with Nickel Steel barrels and was dropped sometime shortly after 1931, when the factory moved to chrome moly steel, a.k.a. Winchester Proof Steel (CMS in the above photo). Since the Nickel Steel barrels were phased out during M54 production and all M70s have CMS (or stainless) barrels, it is unusual for a M70 CMS barrel to have the ‘oval VP’ mark.
Unfortunately, I haven’t anything to contribute about who did the custom work on your rifle.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Bert H. said
Clarence,
Actually, it is my understanding that the “VP” in an oval stamp is “Violent Proof”
Bert
Well, I’ve heard that one too, but when Campbell used it in his first volume, he was roundly criticized for doing so. In his second volume, he hedged his bets by offering the other interpretation as an alternative. Hard to believe that amidst the mountains of paper at Cody there isn’t a definitive explanation; or if there is, I haven’t heard about it.
Just one aficionado’s viewpoint as I can’t recall the original source for both interpretations of the VP stamp: the Violent Proof stamp applied after firing a round with a double charge to me is a meaningful safety check. The Viewed Proof where an inspector visually checks for imperfections in the barrel would seem to be a meaningless exercise, in my opinion.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
OK, I found it! Jeff (JWA) posted a copy of a factory memo dated Nov 1st, 1899, and on that memo, the V.P.is defined as “Violent Proof”. John Campbell wrote two very good reference books on the Model 1885, but he has a number of errors in them (e.g. his serial number versus DOM charts are wrong).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
clarence said
Well, I’ve heard that one too, but when Campbell used it in his first volume, he was roundly criticized for doing so. In his second volume, he hedged his bets by offering the other interpretation as an alternative. Hard to believe that amidst the mountains of paper at Cody there isn’t a definitive explanation; or if there is, I haven’t heard about it.
I did find an answer in the mountains of paper at Cody a few years ago and posted the results here on August 29, 2015.
Here it is again for those of you that forgot, ignored or never saw it. Bert, you must be the only one that pays attention to my posts 
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
clarence said
Well, I’ve heard that one too, but when Campbell used it in his first volume, he was roundly criticized for doing so. In his second volume, he hedged his bets by offering the other interpretation as an alternative. Hard to believe that amidst the mountains of paper at Cody there isn’t a definitive explanation; or if there is, I haven’t heard about it.
I did find an answer in the mountains of paper at Cody a few years ago and posted the results here on August 29, 2015.
Here it is again for those of you that forgot, ignored or never saw it. Bert, you must be the only one that pays attention to my posts
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Regards,
Jeff,
I sincerely doubt that I am the “only one that pays attention” to your posts 
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Jeff,
I sincerely doubt that I am the “only one that pays attention” to your posts
Bert
I know, just kidding. Just a little grumpy after spending a long cold day in the rain. If it wasn’t for the coffee, seafood and microbreweries Seattle would really suck.
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
I did find an answer in the mountains of paper at Cody a few years ago and posted the results here on August 29, 2015.
Much obliged–I never saw it. Glad to know the question has finally been settled.
JWA said
Bert H. said
Jeff,
I sincerely doubt that I am the “only one that pays attention” to your posts
Bert
I know, just kidding. Just a little grumpy after spending a long cold day in the rain. If it wasn’t for the coffee, seafood and microbreweries Seattle would really suck.
Jeff… can’t say I didn’t warn you. Seattle is a dark dreary place this time of the year, with no decent gun shops within acceptable driving distance. and way too may ultra liberal people in it.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I’m so new I pay attention to all posts…eventually I’ll know what to skim vs read… thanks for posting the information. Ron
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
WACA #10293
Bert H. said
Jeff… can’t say I didn’t warn you. Seattle is a dark dreary place this time of the year, with no decent gun shops within acceptable driving distance. and way too may ultra liberal people in it.
Bert
Yeah, I know but I had no choice. I am working over near Ballard in the maritime area. I was hoping to at least see Sig Hansen but that is not going to happen this trip…..oh, well.
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
jwm94 said
How long are you going to be in Seattle, since it would be good to see you again? The wife is just about over a case of the flu, so we might be able to spend some time together talking guns and stuff!James
James,
I have been hoping to sit down with you again. I don’t think I will have time this trip though, I have been working 14 hour days and I am headed back to the airport on Thursday. I will have to catch up with you down the road somewhere. I will add an extra day to my work schedule when I come back up here again.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
jwm94 said
How long are you going to be in Seattle, since it would be good to see you again? The wife is just about over a case of the flu, so we might be able to spend some time together talking guns and stuff!JamesJames,
I have been hoping to sit down with you again. I don’t think I will have time this trip though, I have been working 14 hour days and I am headed back to the airport on Thursday. I will have to catch up with you down the road somewhere. I will add an extra day to my work schedule when I come back up here again.
Best Regards,
Shoot me an email next time you come this way, Jeff!
James
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