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Hello,
I purchased what was advertised as an “Indian gun” last year at auction. It was advertised as an 1873 and “may have been used by Native Americans because of the rawhide covering the stock and serial number””.
Sure enough it was an 1873 in .38-40 covered in rawhide that appears to have been put on wet and shrink wrapped into place as it dried. Laces are of some type of natural material, gut or sinew. Not sure. The gun has a broken lever, with only the trigger guard remaining. It still shoots fine, but the end of the trigger guard is covered with a rawhide ball laced in place so as not to cut the hand of the user when cycling the action. Just for the heck of it I googled ” Indians holding Winchesters”, hoping to maybe see a Native American holding this gun. First picture that pops up to this day is one of a Sioux Indian Chief, (Chief Bad Horse) somewhere in Nebraska or South Dakota in a picture studio holding an 1873 Winchester…..with a broken lever! The rawhide is also on the gun in the picture, but without the gun in hand it may be difficult to even notice it in the photo. The rawhide in the picture is clean and uniform in color whereas the rawhide on the gun I have has 120 years of accumulated crud on it accenting its pattern. I can match up the rawhide on the trigger guard, and then again on the stock right down to the tacks that hold it in place. Also the wood grain on the stock and the chips out of the wood, looks like it is the same gun. I thought maybe an extreme coincidence, but upon further investigation the gun in the photo also has a rawhide ball covering the broken end, as well as the rawhide on the stock and fore stock. The rawhide is essentially concealing damage and holding the gun together. Even with the damage and without a rear sight, the gun shoots fine and is accurate.
There is also some creepy and beautiful artwork not visible to the naked eye pressed into the wood. With a piece of tissue paper and a pencil I was able to pull out a picture of an antelope and on the other side a creepy full-length anatomically correct two-headed skeleton.
I have been in contact with the curator at the Cody Museum because I am certain it is authentic, but wasn’t certain of the importance of the gun or the Indian Chief. I also wasn’t certain if there was an obligation to reveal these types of artifacts if found (artwork). He instructed me to find out as much as I could about the Indian, then have it authenticated as the one in the picture and to then re-connect with him. I am now at a dead end and could use some direction on resources to find out who Chief Bad Horse was.
I can upload some pics if someone can direct me how, I’m new to this forum stuff.
Thanks in advance!!
C
Curtis-
Regarding uploading photo files… If your WACA dues are current and you are logged in using your member ID, then just below the box you are typing in is an “Upload Attachments” button. Clicking on this reveals a “Select Files” field.
All you need to do is drag the image file from your desktop into the “Select Files” field where it says “Drag files here”. A small icon will appear in that field. Once all the files you want are showing, click the “Start Upload” button at the bottom, and the files should upload.
Two other things:
1) The photo(s) will appear in your post wherever you have your cursor placed in the typing field at the time you click “Ctart Upload”. So if you want to post a picture, then add some text, then another picture, etc. you need to repeat the above process adding the new photos as you go. You can use the “Preview” button at the bottom (next to “Submit Reply”) if you want to see how it looks before you submit the post.
2) The system works best with .jpeg files, and they cannot be >1 MB in size. I find uploading 100-400 KB .jpeg files works well and provides sufficient resolution for on-line viewing.
Hope this works, as I’m really intrigued by this story.
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Curtis,
You need to take good clear high resolution pictures (not from a smart phone) along with the picture you have and send them to Wendell Grangaard. He has written a book and is coming out with more documenting Indian guns. He lives in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I have taken pictures of several guns for people that will be coming out in the books.
documenting-the-weapons-used-at-the-little-big-horn
local-news/south-dakota-history-is-one-mans-treasure
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Thank you gentlemen. I started a response earlier today and was interrupted, so if this is a repeat of one that I already composed please accept my apologies. Yes Bob, the pictures I have taken to date are with a smart phone. I really don’t have a good camera to do this type of photography, is there one you could recommend that isn’t a budget buster? I have a relatively large collection that Is documented but I would like to add photos to the records.
I will upload some of the photos that I have here. Notice in the picture the Indian is holding a piece of the leather (gut, sinew?) lace in his right hand, in my opinion, to fool the camera into documenting an unbroken lever. Depending on where the picture is taken from (Google Indians holding Winchesters and there are several sources) the points I’m making are clearer on some more so than others. If you look at the lever area, notice the trigger guard is all that remains with a rawhide ball laced onto the end to prevent injury when cycling. This is the source of the leather lace. Look closely and you will see what appears to be two owl eyes looking back at you. This is the dangling extra lace, which looks like it was tied into a bow and he is holding the trailing remainder. I am able to recreate the bow. So here alone are 4 similarities. 1873, broken lever, rawhide ball, extra lace long enough to tie a bow.
Next if you look behind his right hand, or right beside it there is a demarcation line between the darker wood and tan rawhide Again, depending on the source of the photo this will be clear on some photos and indistinguishable on others. With the tools on my phone and or computer I was able to pinpoint the tacks that hold the rawhide in place. 2 more similarities, from what I can tell identical down to the tacks and the angle and distance of the rawhide cut relative to the angle of the butt plate.
Looking at the fore stock area, the barrel should be visible from muzzle to receiver. It is not. Therefore I must conclude that it is also covered in rawhide and laced at the bottom as mine is and held in place with the help of a band. Mine does not have a band but there is a clear and distinct impression in the rawhide that would indicate there once was a band on the gun I have.
The clincher for me is the darkened swath of wood grain in the center of the stock and the wood chips missing from around the butt plate, which in the studio picture appear as blackened areas. In my opinion are both identical.
Authenticating this as the gun he is holding is the first step to solving what appears to me to be a very cool mystery of the guns provenance. Having trouble with email, I’ll try to upload rest of pics this week sometime. Thanks again 
I hate to say it, but I did a quick inverse-blur on a bigger copy of the image (use Google image search to find like images, searching not on text but on the image itself and it will return visual matches). This sharpens the detail already in an image.
To me it clearly looks like a complete lever and loop. Certainly the trigger guard is completely closed.
The forum limits the display size. You can go to the full size images here:
Steve
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
Curtis,
I know you had your hopes up but the Indian is holding a 44 caliber carbine. You still have a good Indian gun.
As far as a camera there are lots of cheap cameras but is the lenses that need to be good. I have a Cannon EOS 20D that I had for years with several lenses one being a macro lens for doing closeups of stampings and another lens that has a zoom for overall pictures. You don’t want a camera that uses digital zoom, you want the lens to do the work.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
gentlemen, thanks for the information. I will post some more pictures of the artwork I found on the gun and there is more on the stock I have not investigated yet. No disappointment here, that’s why I uploaded this information and asked for your help, so I didn’t go too far out of my way on a wild goose chase. Thanks for the camera info too, I need to step up and get one asap. I’ll post the pictures within the next week. I got my email back up today so I can get the pics over to the desktop now.
Thanks again
c
Curtis,
Send me some pictures of the butt plate and the receiver. The butt plate looks like its the older heavy one used on a first model. What you should do with the marking is to take your tracing and copy it, then by hand try to draw the pictures or marks so someone could more easily see them. Looking at the tracings you posted is very difficult to see whats what. When I would take pictures of them I would use a light from a very low angle to try to catch the shadows on the marks and I take multiple picture with the light from different directions. Also a tripod is a must for clear jiggle free pictures.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
August 11, 2015
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Bob,
As a “learning” collector I read all your posts and am always appreciative of the knowledge that you and others share.
Just was wondering how you could tell that the carbine was a .44 caliber?
Thanks
The receiver is a 44-40 one – it is straight (without the step all other calibers have) where it meets the barrel.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Mark,
You look at the top of the receiver between the bolt and barrel like Wincacher said, no step in it is 44, if there is a step then it can be a 38 or 32, then you look at the size of the mag tube, the 32 will have a noticeably small mag tube. Now if it has a step and the big tube it could be a 22 and then you have to see if its got a loading gate or you see the inner mag at the end of the mag tube.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
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