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One thing I dont recall seeing in print, and have been wondering lately , how does a Company lay claim to putting their Co. designation after a caliber such as Winchester adopting the 7.65 Nato and head stamping it .308 Win. ,(although in this case I think that Winchester may have done some development or had a part in the design ) or any wildcat cartridge ? It would seem that any Company getting the whim could adopt a cartridge and headstamp it as their own ?
Especially interesting is the 32-40 and 38-55 that were originally called Ballard . I would think that Marlin could have rights to these through association , however Winchester stuck their name on them and no objection from Marlin ? Although Marlin was reluctant to recognize some Winchester named cartridges such as 30 WCF , and was instrumental in getting it re-designated as the 30-30 but it still retained the Win Tag, and the 44 WCF chambering that Rem stamped the novel cartridge headstamp identifier in the receiver of my my Rem mod. 14 1/2 as " 44 Rem"
Just for what its worth?
The 32-40 and the 38-55 were developed and used by Marlin and introduced in the single shot rifles that Marlin was manufacturing at the
time. Marlin listed them as the 32-40 and 38-55 Ballard And Marlin. This
can be found in the old Marlin catalogs. When Marlin brought out the Model
1888 in the well established Winchester cartridges the barrels were marked
44W and 38 W also 32 W so Marlin did mark some of their early guns in
a sense with the Winchester marking as we all know what the W stands for.
Another thing to remember is that roll stamps were expensive to make so
I don’t think Marlin wanted to spend money advertising the W brand But
they for the most part must have had a pretty good relationship because
in the 1896 Winchester catalog Winchester offers the 25-20 Marlin the
32-20 Marlin 38-40 Marlin and the 44-40 Marlin clearly Winchesters own
cartridges offered with the Marlin name that being said the Marlin cartridges were often loaded slightly different loading.
7.62 NATO is a military version of the Winchester .308 not the other way around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester
So I guess in that case Winchester was first don’t ya think?
Others like 30-06 Springfield or 6mm Remington are named by the company that brings that round to market.
If you gentlemen hadn’t already yall need to pick up a copy of Cartridges of the World and give it a skim over.
Also another great book concerning specifically this topic, "W.R.A.Co. Headstamped Cartridges and Their Variations" by Daniel L. Shuey Volumes 1 & 2.
Both books go into great detail on these matters as well as other books out there.
The simple answer is that the various firearms companies needed to stay on the cutting edge with there advertising and alot of the various differences in cartridges are merely marketing ploys. Example .40-60 Marlin is identical to .40-65 winchester. Don’t know which was "invented" first but there practically only different in designation.
I could go on further but I think you get the point.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
I am not aware that Winchester ever "laid claim" to the 32-40 or 38-55 cartridges. To the very best of my knowledge, they were always simply marked "32-40" and "38-55" on the barrels of both the Model 1885 Single Shot, and the Model 1894 lever-action rifles. Winchester never marked them with a "W".
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
As are the reloading tools Winchester produced for those calibers.
The head-stamped cartridge would read WRACO at top and 32-40 on the bottom sides of the stamp. This was merely Winchester’s Brand of the 32-40 cartridge and is why its marked on there box as 32-40 Winchester.
There are some cases where a caliber / cartridge may have meet Winchester’s standard and they would lay claim to it. For instance, "45-70 Model 1886" is a .350 grain flat pointed bullet where the standard 45-70Gov’t round used a .405 grain round nosed bullet . The 45-70 Model 1886 was designed for use in there magazine rifle. Marlin had there own spec for there "45-70 Marlin" cartridge. But winchester brand ammo will be marked on the box "45-70 Marlin".
Winchester also made reloading tools marked 45-70 Gov’t, 45-70 Mod. 86, and 45-70 Marlin because the dies are shaped different.
There are a few more examples of this. Winchester was in the business of selling cartridges and sold all of its competitor’s cartridges including Colt, Marlin, Smith&Wesson, and others.
Plus Ballard rifles were made by many different firms and weren’t really exclusive to one company. Its basically like what Browning did for Winchester. Only till Browning had a falling out did he start exclusively making his own brand of firearms.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Another interesting piece of info I ran across when re-reading some books and searching the web is that cartridges produced prior to 1885 are un-headstamped and merely the cartridge box was the only reference of caliber of the cartridge.
Look here a little down the page on a topic of the early 45-75 box.
http://www.oldammo.com/january11.htm
Its interesting to note because prior to 1885 Winchester produced 7 or more of there own calibers and a slew of there competitors calibers.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
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